AS9100D 8.4.1.1 external providers question - Walmart, Home Depot, our lawn care team. etc.

Ed Panek

QA RA Small Med Dev Company
Leader
Super Moderator
Does your personal physician need to be on the list? I mean, if you have a cold you might not do your job as well, right?
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Leader
Admin
We considered adding them just to appease him but realized that if we did it now.
But, the implications of considering your customers as suppliers goes much beyond than simply putting their names on a list. Any external provider has to be approved, monitored, using risk based thinking, their scope of approval has to be determined, etc....AS9100D has extensive requirements for “supplier management”. That’s why is so stupid for this auditor to tell you to treat customers as suppliers.

It is disheartening, but not surprising that we have someone working as a 3rd party auditor in a specialized scheme, demonstrating such gross lack of business acumen.

Time to resurrect the Is the competence of third party auditors improving? thread :naughty:
 

Big Jim

Admin
Sorry for joining this so late. You really do need another auditor for Stage 2. You should contact the certification body and explain to them why you don't want the guy back. Any inconvenience of rescheduling will be insignificant compared to the damage he could do. Don't delay.

To define the supplier that need to be controlled take a closer look at 8.4.1:

"The organization shall determine the controls to be applied to externally provided processes, products, and services when: a) products and services from the external providers are intended for incorporation into the organization's own products; b) products and services are provided directly to the customer(s) by an external provider on behalf of the organization; c) a process, or part of a process, is provided by an external providor as a result of a decision by the organization."

a) is the most pertinent element here. If it doesn't go into your product or service, the purchased items and that items supplier don't need to be controlled. It is (as Sidney noted) outside of the scope of your quality management system.

b) relates to drop shipping and it should be evident that if you purchase something to be drop shipped to your customer you need to maintain control.

c) relates to outsourcing and it should be evident that when you outsource you need to maintain control.

Evidently you auditor didn't read 8.4.1 a).
 

OzzyAS

AS9100 AEA Aerospace QE and Program Manager
If the organization purchases some items from their customers by mean the transfer of ownership to the organization, then that customer in that case organization's supplier. If Customer provides its property for its contracts then it is not a supplier. It is considered a customer property. If home depot products affects on QMS then it needs to be controlled under 8.4. It is about what type of service and products procured, not the company itself.
 

Big Jim

Admin
If home depot products affects on QMS then it needs to be controlled under 8.4. It is about what type of service and products procured, not the company itself.

I know that seems to be the official line of those that administer AS9100, but it is in variance with ISO 9001:2015 8.4.1a. TC176 is in control here, not the IAQG, as this is part of ISO 9001:2015 and IS NOT part of the AS9100D enhancements.

"The organization shall determine the controls to be applied to externally provided processes, products, and services when: a) products and services from the external providers are intended for incorporation into the organization's own products . . . "
 

Al Rosen

Leader
Super Moderator
I know that seems to be the official line of those that administer AS9100, but it is in variance with ISO 9001:2015 8.4.1a. TC176 is in control here, not the IAQG, as this is part of ISO 9001:2015 and IS NOT part of the AS9100D enhancements.
AS9100 is a stand alone document controlled by the IAQG. Just because they incorporated the ISO 9001 requirements, does not mean that TC176 is in control of AS9100. If you had a question regarding AS9100 you would submit it to IAQG not TC176.
 

Big Jim

Admin
Even in the AS9100 clarifications they refer to the ISO 9001 portions as seperate issues. Also certificates are issued to both ISO 9001:2015 and AS9100D, not AS9100D alone.

Just because you ask IAQG doesn't mean IAQG is in control of the ISO 9001 portion of the standard.
 

Kokolita

Starting to get Involved
Just wanted to touch base on the topic.... We completed our Stage II audit and the auditor didn't even bring up the ole "your customers must be on your approved vendors list". Perhaps after leaving our Stage I audit after our argument about it, he looked into it and determined he was incorrect. Not too sure. I'm just happy it wasn't an issue. Thank you all for your input!
 

Big Jim

Admin
Just wanted to touch base on the topic.... We completed our Stage II audit and the auditor didn't even bring up the ole "your customers must be on your approved vendors list". Perhaps after leaving our Stage I audit after our argument about it, he looked into it and determined he was incorrect. Not too sure. I'm just happy it wasn't an issue. Thank you all for your input!

Great news. At least you were ready.
 
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