AS9102 FAI (First Article Inspection) - Is a Ballooned Drawing Required?

Z

z28tt

#1
Hi guys,

We just got a rejection from a customer for not including the bubbled/ballooned blueprint along with the FAIR. This customer is a licensee, and not the blueprint owner, so we don't typically send drawings in that case (yeah, I know, they're buying the parts!).

I didn't see anything in AS9102 that requires a balloon drawing at all. Is there such a requirement? I'll go digging through the PO terms and conditions now as well, but if I don't see anything, I'd like to push back and have this rejection reversed.

Comments?

Thanks for the help!
 
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MalibuJim

Starting to get Involved
#2
Re: AS9102 FAI - Is a balloon dwg required?

Z28TT,

(nice handle - When I was in high school in the early 80's a buddy of mine had a late 60's Z28, lot's of fun to be had. Up all night changing out headers, gearing, etc.)

In my world, Customer Drawings are their property and cannot be provided to another entity without permission from the owner (your term licensee). If your company has a non-disclosure agreement with the owner of the drawing, there may be language permitting transfer to, say the U.S. Government.

Else, I concur it is best to avoid sharing information owned by another organization.
 

JAltmann

Quite Involved in Discussions
#3
Re: AS9102 FAI - Is a balloon dwg required?

Some customers do have a require as part of the FAIR package. I can't recall off the top of my head if AS9102 requires it or not, but to me it is just standard process and common courtesy.

Why would the customer not be allowed to see the print? Did they not provide it to your company?
 
H

Hodgepodge

#4
AS9102 does not require a ballooned drawing. It requires "that every design characteristic requirement is accounted for, uniquely identified and has inspection results traceable to each unique identifier." (AS9102A Section 5.2 #8) Section 5.5.2 has more information on characteristic accountability, but no requirement for ballooning.

Ballooned drawings are customer or internal requirements. They can be helpful when multiple characteristics with the same values are located in the same section of the blueprint. I haven't had a customer require a copy of a ballooned document, even when having to submit APQP documentation.
 
Z

z28tt

#5
Re: AS9102 FAI - Is a balloon dwg required?

Some customers do have a require as part of the FAIR package. I can't recall off the top of my head if AS9102 requires it or not, but to me it is just standard process and common courtesy.

Why would the customer not be allowed to see the print? Did they not provide it to your company?
Thanks for the responses. In this case, the customer didn't provide the print, since we had it already due to making parts direct to the design owner. I'm sure they could provide it if pressed. What I'm trying to figure out is that if the PO doesn't state a balloon dwg is required as part of the FAIR package, and AS9102 also doesn't state that, then I've got solid ground to reverse the rejection. I hate picking a fight with the customer, though.
 

dsanabria

Quite Involved in Discussions
#6
Re: AS9102 FAI - Is a balloon dwg required?

Thanks for the responses. In this case, the customer didn't provide the print, since we had it already due to making parts direct to the design owner. I'm sure they could provide it if pressed. What I'm trying to figure out is that if the PO doesn't state a balloon dwg is required as part of the FAIR package, and AS9102 also doesn't state that, then I've got solid ground to reverse the rejection. I hate picking a fight with the customer, though.
NOTE:

1. Before going to war and push back - read the LTA (Long Term Agreement), also read the Terms and Condition.

2. Read the Quality Requirements of the customer.
(i.e. UTC (United Technology - aka Pratt / Sikorsky / Hamilton) have a document call - ASQR-01) This is how quality requirements are flow down. So before you get to excited - find out if this requirements ware flown down or forgotten to be flow down.

3. AS 9102 Section 5.2 # 8 read - and I quote
"Verify that every design characteristic requirement is accounted for, uniquely identified and has inspection results traceable to each unique identifier". (end of quote)

The interpretation of many customer is the following:
1. Uniquely identified (Placed in Form 3 in a numerical sequence).
2. Inspection results traceable (key word) to each unique identifier (numbers inside a circle for easy of finding).

4. Place yourself on the receiving side and see how much fun it is to match the sequence of 100 - to 1000 characteristic on form 3 to the print.

5. Future communications on this product will give you an excellent point of reference. (i.e. item # 123 on AS9102 form 3 is out of tolerance) - go have fun looking for it - and pray that it is the only dimension on that page.
 
D

demir-ahmet

#7
See one of the slide of IAQG AS9102 presentation below;

Ballooned Drawings:
- A ballooned drawing is optional and considered an industry best practice to support Box 5 of Form 3
- Identify 100% of characteristics
- Balloon and number all dimensions
- Balloon and number all surface finish callouts
- Including exclusion and inclusion area callouts
- Balloon and number all material and hardness callouts
- Don’t forget the requirements identified in the title boxes at the bottom of the drawings.
 

Frank T.

Involved in Discussions
#8
:2cents: Being that the drawing is probable Proprietery I would first determine (find out) if I am allowed to shared this information with other entities other than the design owner. Also, do ITAR/EAR requirements apply to this information which may prevent the sharing of the drawing as well.

The reason I mention these is because I was performing FAI's to UTC drawings and supplying this information to other companies, for which I had written permission from UTC to sell the parts to but later discovered that I did not have permission to share technical data (i.e. ballooned drawing, manufacturing know how) with them.
 
A

AndrisSkulte

#9
ITAR is an interesting issue - consider that the same part may be used in both military and commercial applications. The part could be sold to an international commercial end user, but the balloon drawing can not be shared as part of the first article documentation.
 
E

edgarcqa

#10
Re: AS9102 FAI - Is a balloon dwg required?

NOTE:

1. Before going to war and push back - read the LTA (Long Term Agreement), also read the Terms and Condition.

2. Read the Quality Requirements of the customer.
(i.e. UTC (United Technology - aka Pratt / Sikorsky / Hamilton) have a document call - ASQR-01) This is how quality requirements are flow down. So before you get to excited - find out if this requirements ware flown down or forgotten to be flow down.

3. AS 9102 Section 5.2 # 8 read - and I quote
"Verify that every design characteristic requirement is accounted for, uniquely identified and has inspection results traceable to each unique identifier". (end of quote)

The interpretation of many customer is the following:
1. Uniquely identified (Placed in Form 3 in a numerical sequence).
2. Inspection results traceable (key word) to each unique identifier (numbers inside a circle for easy of finding).

4. Place yourself on the receiving side and see how much fun it is to match the sequence of 100 - to 1000 characteristic on form 3 to the print.

5. Future communications on this product will give you an excellent point of reference. (i.e. item # 123 on AS9102 form 3 is out of tolerance) - go have fun looking for it - and pray that it is the only dimension on that page.
In addition to dsanabria response which in my opinion is very accurate, I will add the following.
AS 9102 Section 5.2 # 8 read - and I quote
"Verify that every design characteristic requirement is accounted for, uniquely identified and has inspection results traceable to each unique identifier". (end of quote)
The originator of the AS9102 must be able to demonstrate accountability for each characteristic. I don't see how can you accurately do that with out a characteristic qualifier which in most cases is A ballooned dimension.
 
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