Attitudes and Intimidation in Elsmar Cove forum Posts

[Marc]

Gosh Marc, It almost sounds as though the Cove Forums have become "Politically Correct". But I would also like to add, as one of those on again off again lurkers, that this place & / or this profession is not for the timid. If you have thin skin you are going to have problems.

I think this was more true in the past. Since December I've been very happy about the direction of these forums. I will say one thing - The forums have been online for about 7 years in one software or another - vBulletin coming online in August 2001 {and incorporating posts from UltimateBB going back to about June 1998} if I remember correctly - and it's still here.

The forums are as much a 'Chit Chat' place for a lot of people as a source of information - and that does make a difference to many people. It is a place where people who like this medium can interact.

It is not the ASQ forums and neither will ever supplant the other because the whole idea here is different. This is a place where people are more open and that's not just a consequence of being open to the public. People can and do say things here they could not say on the ASQ forums, and it's a different mindset here.

The ASQ forums are fine for many people. Others like it here. But it's not competition - it's just different here than it is there.

As for these forums becoming 'politically correct', I tend to just look at it as more focused. There was profanity we didn't need, there have been 'attitudes' (including mine), and other things which diluted the usefullness and intent of the forums. Things change as time goes on. The internet as a whole is vastly different than it was when I started this site in January 1996.

Anyone remember the name of the forum which was online for years but finally spiraled out of control (it was not moderated)? I forget what the name was but for a while this forum was following the same path, but more slowly.

 

[CarolX]

Anyone remember the name of the forum which was online for years but finally spiraled out of control (it was not moderated)? I forget what the name was but for a while this forum was following the same path, but more slowly.

Can't remember the name, but I know the one you are talking about. Some jerk got on the board and had NOTHING nice to say to anyone our about anything. That's when I found the Cove....and never went back!

Carol

 

[Craig H.]

One of the internets great downfalls, is that you are too insulated from the community that you are speaking to. I might never personally meet Steve prevette, wes brucy, Bill pflanz, Mike S, etc (Honest I'd mention you all, if I could ). But as I write I am speaking to you. My own behavior should reflect that my audience has both dedicated seekers of the truth and masters of great knowledge, that might be able to build upon your own understanding. and this basic humility and respect should stick with you whether you've written doctrinal dissertations of statistical distributions or you just struggle to spell deming.

Very well said.

As one of those who was around, and actively participated in, the deadly spiral, I have to say that the Cove now does a much better job of fulfilling what I believe was Marc's intention - its mission, if you will. Marc did a very good job of pulling us out of a flat spin.

The tone is different, and much more effective. It was hard to concentrate on Quality after leaving the "Contemplating... " thread for instance. (Don't look for it - it has been, thankfully purged. If you don't remember it, all the better. Not that what we discussed wasn't important, just not important to quality).

Now, with some of the "newbies" (if you want to call experts that) we have indeed risen to a higher intellectual level.

Stupid questions? I'll try not to ask any. Stupid comments? Same. But, the beauty of the Cove is that it is casual enough where we can run something out for all our Q friends to see, and get good advice before we do something at the office that allows our coworkers to figure out the Quality King has on no clothes.

And that alone is worth much more than the price of admission.

 

[NAOTB]

Newbie and proud of it!


As a very recent newcomer to the cove I find it funny that you have vernacular that appear to describe different levels of expertise.

Anyone new to Quality and especially ISO requirements relish the chance to ask questions nobody in their organization can provide answers for.

The people who have helped me here with what I also thought might be foolish or amateur questions have also encouraged me to ask questions in the forum and not as many as private messages for the sake of helping other "newbies".
Otherwise where are the level 3 documents telling you where to find specific information in the cove.

I thank all of you for that and anyone else can get over themselves.


New Auditor on the block

 

[Wes Bucey]

As a very recent newcomer to the cove I find it funny that you have vernacular that appear to describe different levels of expertise.

Anyone new to Quality and especially ISO requirements relish the chance to ask questions nobody in their organization can provide answers for.

The people who have helped me here with what I also thought might be foolish or amateur questions have also encouraged me to ask questions in the forum and not as many as private messages for the sake of helping other "newbies".
Otherwise where are the level 3 documents telling you where to find specific information in the cove.

I thank all of you for that and anyone else can get over themselves.


New Auditor on the block

In my own mind (often a scary place), I have two working definitions for "newbies"

1. people new to the Cove, who are still working their way through navigation and protocol in a feature-rich environment, regardless of their Quality "credentials"
2. people who are new to "Standardized" Quality, who are struggling with straight definitions and nuances of Quality Standards and government Regulations, together with "Customer Requirements" from super trans-national customers.

The newbies are only a small part of the Cove universe. No matter how experienced and savvy we may be, we all run into a "poser" from time to time. Andrew Carnegie had a concept called the "Group Mind" in which the whole was greater than the sum of the parts. The Cove is a Group Mind and those who have the courage to overcome shyness and potential for embarrassment can ask those kind of questions here they are leery of posing at work. (Often, there is no one at work to ask!)

Another small segment of the Cove universe are those Mentors who give freely of the experience and knowledge they have gained over years. In some small way, it is "payback" for the kindness of others who helped them survive to gain the knowledge and experience they now share.

Finally, it is nice to have a place which is the cyber equivalent of "Cheers" where everyone knows your name.

(What was the character name of Coach, anyway?)

 

[Marc]

So - Should we rename the Coffee Break forum Cheers? If you've looked at the most 'popular' forum (do the popup for an extended listing) in the statistics.... The Coffee Break forum is #2.

 

[Bill Pflanz]

Andrew Carnegie had a concept called the "Group Mind" in which the whole was greater than the sum of the parts. The Cove is a Group Mind and those who have the courage to overcome shyness and potential for embarrassment can ask those kind of questions here they are leery of posing at work. (Often, there is no one at work to ask!)

The "older" quality professionals must have heavily relied on books, articles and seminars to learn or the tried and true method - Screw it up once and learn from it. Discussion boards can be helpful, controversial, irrelevant, rude and a number of other things but they do provide another source of information that can be used or discarded. The Cove may not always be valuable but you cannot deny that it is cheap.

Another small segment of the Cove universe are those Mentors who give freely of the experience and knowledge they have gained over years. In some small way, it is "payback" for the kindness of others who helped them survive to gain the knowledge and experience they now share.

I hope the old axiom, Those who can do, those who can't teach, doesn't apply to the mentors.

Finally, it is nice to have a place which is the cyber equivalent of "Cheers" where everyone knows your name.

(What was the character name of Coach, anyway?)

Ernie Pantusso - I cheated and looked it up.

Bill Pflanz

 

[Randy]

I hope I can be backed up in saying that I'm not much different in person than I am here. I come across as being pretty opinionated and direct and sometimes it may be misunderstood. I try not to insult (unless it's called for, which it seldom is) and I can't be insulted (thick skin and skull).

 

[RosieA]

A public thank you

Some of the great stuff that happens here in the Cove isn't always happening in the forums. I recently had a major job problem that Wes Bucey very kindly helped me with using the private message route. His advice was right on the mark, and I have successfully worked through the issue. I've privately thanked Wes, but I think the moment has come to publicly thank him too.

I've benefited from the public forums for years, but the supportive community here was a surprise benefit.

 

[Marc]

Re: Responding to Questions by 'Newbies': Attitude and Intimidation

Hello, everyone. As you all know a brief spate of eruptions have arisen over the last week or so. I'm going to speak frankly so for those offended, I'm sorry but it's what I feel.

The forum is in very good shape, especially considering its evolution over the years. But - We can do better. I ask that we all remember we're not an 'elite' group (myself included), and that MOST people who end up here are looking for help. Most are not experts. Most are not experienced. Many do not even know the basics.

My point is we were all in their place at one time or another. I think what really gets to some of us is that someone asks a question that has been answered several (or many) times already. Or when someone asks a basic question that we *assume* they should know or could find the answer to with a modicum of searching and self-learning. We tend to get upset when someone 'asks' to be 'spoon fed'. Yet, we all know this is *standard* in all public forums, or at least every forum I have ever visited. I've been guilty of the same 'transgressions' myself. There should not be an expectation that these aspects of a public forum will go away.

I would like to ask everyone to please keep in mind that the forum is a place for people to help others. If you (meaning anyone) get upset or otherwise frustrated because people ask what you may consider a stupid or 'easy' question, I ask you to refrain from replying in the thread. A while back when I discussed these aspects one person wrote "What, the Cove is becoming politically correct?" Folks, it has nothing to do with being politically correct. It has to do with being civil and sensitive to others. If you want to equate 'political correctness' with civility and sensitivity, that's your choice. Either way, if you're not interested in helping out please don't post.

I also want to remind everyone this is a public forum where personal attacks are not appropriate. If your emotions are running away with you, I ask you to step back for a minute and think. Is it really worth it to start, or continue, a personal fight online in a public forum? Is that really showing your best face to the world?

I hope everyone will take a minute or two and think about this forum and what you post. If you want the Cove to be here next year and the year after, it requires that we all take posts less personally and to decide why you stop by here as you peruse the internet.