Definition Audit - Definition of what an audit is - Is there more to auditing?

Elsmar Forum Sponsor
M

M Greenaway

#3
#3
None in particular Claes, just though it might interest others.

I stumbled on it today thinking 'who are these guys trying to steal the IRCA's limelight' and was very interested in the 'wider' world of auditing shown in this website. I was particularly interested in the comments made in the discussion forum that showed a certain disdain for ISO9000 internal auditors that felt they knew it all about auditing.

I was also interested to read there definition of what an audit is, particularly the openness of it being a 'consultancy' exercise as well - in the ISO world we would smart at such suggestions.

I think those interested in auditing could do well to see what these guys are about - I even saw that someone was doing an MSc in Auditing !!

I think the site also shows how the ISO9000 world is in 'catch up' regarding auditing effectiveness, comments made in the discussion forum suggest that these guys see ISO auditors as 'box ticking policemen' - perhaps true, very interesting !
 
J

Jimmy Olson

#4
#4
The problem with considering the comments on that site is that it is not geared towards quality auditors, but financial auditors instead.

Financial and business auditors have always looked down their noses at quality auditors and consider quality audits a waste of time. However, with things changing, they may be looking to the quality auditors when they have to start looking at business processes.
 
J

Jimmy Olson

#5
#5
Hi Jim :bigwave:

Sorry to dissapoint you, but I won't be drawn into a debate on semantics by a trick question. :D
 
J

Jimmy Olson

#6
#6
Ok Jim, I will give you the benefit of the doubt :D

When I mentioned Quality Auditors I was using a generic term to refer to a traditional ISO Quality Systems Auditor. This is in contrast to a Financial Auditor who will primarily focus on the finance side of a business. As it stands now, there is a difference between the two, even though they are similar. But, both sides are going to have to adapt in the futre as they begin to merge.
 
J

Jimmy Olson

#7
#7
Jim,

I do think the role of a quality auditor does need to change. I know of too many internal auditors that could quote the standard word for word, but don't understand anything about how their company operates. In order to be an effective auditor I think you need to understand the various processes of the company and how they all relate to each other.

I'm not sure about managers being part of the audit team, but they definitely need to support the audit program (so I guess in a way they would be part of the team). The auditor role should still fall to one or two people (or however many depending on company size). But the auditor should have a wider range of skills and knowledge than what is provided in a traditional ISO 9001 auditor course. This is why I see a merging of auditors being a good idea. If you have a person who understands the company processes and also has an understanding of business practices, I think this would be an ideal person to conduct audits. This would also be very beneficial to the company as well.

Sure, you're required to check compliance to the standard, but why stop there? Check to see if all the processes are effective and efficient and look for areas to improve.
 
M

M Greenaway

#8
#8
Jim

My thoughts are that you cannot check for compliance to ISO9001 from a desk, you have to see what is actually being done complies.

I do agree that efficiency and effectiveness checks, and the degree to which we meet objectives are better done by other formal measurement methods, and in fact ISO9001 tells us to do this 'outside' of the audit process in clause 8.2.3 on measurement of processes.
 
M

M Greenaway

#9
#9
Jim

I appreciate the argument, but how does that fit with the ISO9001 clause 8.2.2 on INTERNAL audit, where it says that this process shall determine whether the QMS conforms to the requirements of ISO9001.

Also would anyone consider that a six monthly review of the system by an external body is adequate to determine the conformance of the system ?

(assuming that those that chose the ISO9001 model did so because they wanted their system to match it for positive benefits)
 
C

Craig H.

#10
#10
For what its worth, I agree that the monitoring of the quality system must be an ongoing process. However, the bi-yearly look at that system by someone who is not working within it can be valuable precisely because they are not involved in the system.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
R Critical suppliers (Definition of) and MDSAP (Medical Device Single Audit Program) ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 15
M Inputs on definition of very similar processes for multi site audit sample - IAF MD1 2018 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
S Definition Would a wrong definition constitute an Audit Finding? Definitions, Acronyms, Abbreviations and Interpretations Listed Alphabetically 3
K Definition of Repeat Audit Findings Internal Auditing 11
W Definition Product Audit - Definition Definitions, Acronyms, Abbreviations and Interpretations Listed Alphabetically 2
K Definition Audit - Time for a new definition of the word Audit? Definitions, Acronyms, Abbreviations and Interpretations Listed Alphabetically 15
B Definition of Calibration Frequency - Dispute during Audit ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 9
A Audit "Finding" Definition and Significance General Auditing Discussions 7
sathis Audit Trails - Definition, Description and Software Internal Auditing 9
D Definition Major Audit Nonconformance - Definition of Major Nonconformance Definitions, Acronyms, Abbreviations and Interpretations Listed Alphabetically 9
J Definition of Special Characteristics Delta C and Delta S - Need for Customer Audit Capability, Accuracy and Stability - Processes, Machines, etc. 2
L Audit Definition in ISO 9000:2000 includes "documented process"? General Auditing Discussions 2
E Definition Audit Finding - In 'Registrar Language' what is the Definition of a 'Finding'? Definitions, Acronyms, Abbreviations and Interpretations Listed Alphabetically 11
A Definition Major vs. Minor Nonconformance (Finding) - Internal Audit - Definition & Differences Definitions, Acronyms, Abbreviations and Interpretations Listed Alphabetically 38
Marc Definition Process Audit - Internal and External - ISO9000 - A Definition Definitions, Acronyms, Abbreviations and Interpretations Listed Alphabetically 7
N Definition Discovery Audit - Can someone give me a text book definition? Definitions, Acronyms, Abbreviations and Interpretations Listed Alphabetically 4
B IATF16949 audit requirement - Auditor request UCL and LCL must be show Xbar-R, IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 6
T COVID, Furlough and ISO9001 Surveillance Audit Coffee Break and Water Cooler Discussions 2
R External Audit and Certificate prorogation due to the pandemic General Auditing Discussions 10
Dean Bell Implementation of Controls as per SOA for Stage 2 Audit IEC 27001 - Information Security Management Systems (ISMS) 0
G Logistic organization and controls - IATF/ISO 9001 audit Nonconformance and Corrective Action 2
Geoff Cotton Performing a Delta Audit General Auditing Discussions 12
N ISO 19011:2018 - 5.4.2 "...audit program should engage in appropriate continual development..." Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 4
G MSA check list to audit IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 8
L Open Positions During AS9100 Audit AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 3
L Stage 2 audit - Requirement for 3 months of records ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 5
F Who can sit in/perform an API audit? Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 2
L Manufacturing Process Audit Help IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 6
H AS9100 Checklist for Internal Audit needed AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 1
A What are the pros and cons of using an audit software for internal auditing? General Auditing Discussions 4
F Internal Audit before Pre-Assessment ISO 17025 related Discussions 2
Q Internal audit plan template Internal Auditing 5
G Self Assessment Audit from a new potential customer General Auditing Discussions 3
L Internal audit during COVID-19 restrictions ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 5
M OEM asking for NC report after certification audit. IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
Ooi Yew Jin Customer E audit preparation Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 2
N Audit non-compliance API Q1 - Use of External Documents 4.4.4 in Product Realization Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 4
J Remote Audit Experiences - June 2020 General Auditing Discussions 26
F Product audit sampling plans IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
O ISO13485 implementation - Are internal audits expected before stage 1 audit? Design and Development of Products and Processes 3
M Supplier Audit Report - Template for second party audit wanted Lean in Manufacturing and Service Industries 1
Stefan Mundt AS9100D Major nonconformity due to recurrence of a NC during a subsequent CB audit. AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 1
B Using Unreleased Documents & Process Maps for Internal Audit purposes ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 12
Q ISO 9001:2015 man days for surveillance audit ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 11
F ISO 13485 - EU countries that could request another audit ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 2
H Layered audit updates after COVID-19 shutdowns Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 0
L How to deal with an ISO 13485 Supplier Audit nonconformance ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 17
M Description of the requirements of clause 9.2.2.3 manufacturing process audit- needs your feedback IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 0
Armen Conflict of Interest if I audit the QC department? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 16
V Generic IATF 16949 Audit Checklist wanted IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3

Similar threads

Top Bottom