Audit Finding against ISO/TS 16949 6.2.2 Competence, Training and Awareness

G

GoKats78

#1
During a discussion with a group of Quality "buddies" one of them told us that their organization had been issued a minor against 6.2.2 for not having evidence of training and competence for their plant manager (and other management positions..engineers,supervisors)

Where should the line be drawn?
And who would determine the competence of the Plant Manager (and who would dare say he wasn't!)

He asked for examples of how others have met this requirement...

Thoughts? Ideas?

ISO/TS 16949 6.2.2 Competence, training and awareness
The organization shall
a) determine the necessary competence for personnel performing work affecting conformity to product requirements,
b) where applicable, provide training or take other actions to achieve the necessary competence,
c) evaluate the effectiveness of the action taken,
d) ensure that its personnel are aware of the relevance and importance of their activities and how they contribute to the acheivement of the quality objectives, and
e) maintain appropriate records of education, training, skills and experience
 
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insect warfare

QA=Question Authority
Trusted Information Resource
#2
Paragraph 6.2.2(b) is a "where applicable" requirement. If there was objective evidence that the Plant Manager was not performing his/her duties or responsibilities to par, and nothing was being done about it, then I could see this requirement being cited.

Otherwise, the counter-argument lies in paragraph 6.2.1, which states: "Personnel performing work affecting conformity to product requirements shall be competent on the basis of appropriate education, training, skills and experience." If I were an auditor in this situation, show me evidence of appropriate education, training, skills or experience and I would be satisfied.

We all know that ISO 9000 has its own definition of "competence", but if you could use "competence" in a math formula, based on this requirement, it would read like this:

Competence = Education + Training + Skills + Experience

Any combination of these four elements can effectively contribute to one's competence.

Brian :rolleyes:
 

morteza

Trusted Information Resource
#3
I think having evidence of training is necessary, because in clause 6.2.2e ISO/TS requires maintaining of appropriate records of training. Here the problem maybe that what records are appropriate.
 

insect warfare

QA=Question Authority
Trusted Information Resource
#4
I think having evidence of training is necessary, because in clause 6.2.2e ISO/TS requires maintaining of appropriate records of training. Here the problem maybe that what records are appropriate.
Some definitions from the Encarta dictionary to help put things in perspective:

Appropriate: suitable for the occasion or circumstances
Inappropriate: not fitting, timely or suitable
Applicable: affecting, connected with, or relevant to a person, group of people, or situation

The full statement of 6.2.2(e) is "maintain appropriate records of education, training, skills and experience (see 4.2.4)." In the OP's case, the individual's level of involvement with the product can also be weighted here. Someone like a plant manager may not directly affect product quality, but still can make decisions which may have a lateral effect down the road. But the decision here on whether to train or not boils down to if this person has the necessary education, skills or experience to compensate. So "no training records" may actually be appropriate for this scenario (most likely because of the redundancy it would create).

For the other positions mentioned by the OP, the same ruse applies here, and training (or other actions, such as certification or qualification) would be performed where applicable. Demonstration or observation after the fact could be used as a method of evaluation. Then records would be kept as appropriate.

Remember the four elements from my last post. Where one is lacking, the others should make up for.

Brian :rolleyes:
 
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