Audit Findings: Writing against Internal an ISO Clause

dubrizo

Involved In Discussions
#1
When a finding is discovered during an internal audit that violates internal policy/procedure and ISO, are you only writing it up against the internal policy/procedure, or are you also writing it up against the ISO clause?

Thank you
 
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dsanabria

Quite Involved in Discussions
#2
Re: Audit Findings: writing against Internal Clause, ISO, both

When a finding is discovered during an internal audit that violates internal policy/procedure and ISO, are you only writing it up against the internal policy/procedure, or are you also writing it up against the ISO clause?

Thank you
Without seeing the write up - it should be written for the clause or procedure that it violates - this is what you are going to provide an answer to and hopefully add value to that process.

Feel free to paste the writeup here so that we can provide better guidelines.
 

dubrizo

Involved In Discussions
#3
Re: Audit Findings: writing against Internal Clause, ISO, both

Situation: a company policy states that all new hires shall receive training 1, 2, and 3. During an internal audit, it was found that several new hires had not received the training as set forth by the internal procedure.

In my mind this violates both internal policy as well as the ISO standard (I don't have the exact clause in front of me).
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#4
Re: Audit Findings: writing against Internal Clause, ISO, both

Situation: a company policy states that all new hires shall receive training 1, 2, and 3. During an internal audit, it was found that several new hires had not received the training as set forth by the internal procedure.

In my mind this violates both internal policy as well as the ISO standard (I don't have the exact clause in front of me).
Nothing prevents you from citing both, although I personally think that internal audits should be focused on internal process requirements. The assumption is that your internal documented requirements are written such that the relevant ISO requirements are addressed.
 

Marcelo

Inactive Registered Visitor
#5
Re: Audit Findings: writing against Internal Clause, ISO, both

It depends on the audit objectives. You can audit against ISO standards requirements, you can audit against internal requirements, you can audit against anything you want, but it needs to be clear in the audit planning.
 

Marcelo

Inactive Registered Visitor
#6
Re: Audit Findings: writing against Internal Clause, ISO, both

For example, ISO 9001 requires that internal audits verify 4 different things:
- conformity to planned arrangements
- conformity to requirements of ISO 9001
- conformity to the quality management system requirements established by the organization
- that the QMS is effectively implemented and maintained

You do not need to audit everything every time (nor you should because they would be very distinctive audits), but you need to audit them all in a defined period.

Unfortunatelly, most of the time, people think that they are auditing everything, but if this is not clear on the audit objective, you should not do it (if you find something that you know is not correct but is not part of the specific audit objective, you may mention it, or may require another audit with that specific objective.
 

somashekar

Staff member
Super Moderator
#7
Re: Audit Findings: writing against Internal Clause, ISO, both

Situation: a company policy states that all new hires shall receive training 1, 2, and 3. During an internal audit, it was found that several new hires had not received the training as set forth by the internal procedure.

In my mind this violates both internal policy as well as the ISO standard (I don't have the exact clause in front of me).
The internal audit is a periodic opportunity to weigh and measure your way of managing things for conformance to planned arrangements and effective implementation and maintenance. The reference to the ISO clause is not essential as the objective is to bring up good performance as well as highlight risks with what you are doing in the way you have laid it out.
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#8
When a finding is discovered during an internal audit that violates internal policy/procedure and ISO, are you only writing it up against the internal policy/procedure, or are you also writing it up against the ISO clause?

Thank you
dubrizo,

Cite the applicable procedure and the applicable clause from ISO 9001 so the corrective action team have the baseline requirements should the procedure need revision.

Many procedures go beyond what the standard specifies and perhaps with good reason so ensure the CAR goes to the process owner.

And you may find these "untrained people" were in fact aware and competent.

John
 

dubrizo

Involved In Discussions
#9
Thank you all for your input! I've seen/heard it done in different ways, but I've not had the opportunity to get a lot of perspective on the matter. Unfortunately, we live in a world where a lot of old ways are the only ways, and individuals can be very closed minded when they are "right" and it doesn't matter what other people do. ie. best practices
 
#10
What may be more important is the effect of not having the required training. Did you also consider that? It's one thing to not "follow procedure" and something entirely different to report on the effect of that. ISO clauses are less important to management whereas results are...
 
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