Audit Nonconformity on Defining 'Outsourced' Infrastructure Maintenance

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#11
We are concluding here and we even have no idea of the OP's business.
:agree1:
The outsourced processes fall squarely in section 6.3 of the ISO 9001 standard. Without knowing more about the nature of the business, speculation about how much control should be exercized over such outsourced processes is risky.

The type and extent of control to be applied to the outsourced process can be influenced by factors such as
a) the potential impact of the outsourced process on the organization's capability to provide product that conforms to requirements,
b) the degree to which the control for the process is shared,
c) the capability of achieving the necessary control through the application of 7.4.
Imagine the OP business included a fleet of road ambulances. Maintenance of the vehicles to ensure reliability would be CRITICAL.
 
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Big Jim

Super Moderator
#12
Wait a while .....
We are concluding here and we even have no idea of the OP's business.
In all fairness I believe these are processes that are integral in the OP's QMS and they fairly outsource. The lacking perhaps was identification and needed controls within the QMS.
I concluded nothing. I'm suggesting opening conversation. If there is something about the nature of the business that would justify the nonconformance it probably should stand. I would guess that it would not be likely though.
 
K

klcuellar

#13
1. I edited the title of the thread to reflect the nonconformity on your handling of the outsourced process rather than the process itself.

2. 4.1 (General Requirements) of the standard is quite clear on this issue. You would normally extend control to such a process through a service agreement or contract and all you need to mention in your QMS is that control of this process is through a service agreement or contract.
You don't say what standard is involved here. In ISO 9001:2008, 4.1 says in part:

Where an organization chooses to outsource any process that affects product conformity to requirements, the organization shall ensure control over such processes. The type and extent of control to be applied to these outsourced processes shall be defined within the quality management system.

Before there's a nonconformity, a determination must be made as to whether the processes in question "...[affect] product conformity to requirements..." A reasonable argument could be made in many cases that the two processes you mention don't apply to this requirement.

sorry! i forgot to mention that our nonconformity was based on the ISO 9001:2008 clause 6.3 Infrastructure.
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#15
A "service level agreement," as you describe it, is a contract.
Jim,

The SLA is nearly a contract but the SLA includes no "consideration".

One of the parties was already obliged to provide the service to the other party. The SLA establishes the criteria for the delivery of the service so both parties can now monitor and control the delivery of that service.

Had there been a promise to pay, a documented specification of some sort would probably exist for the service.

But the OP's later 6.3 reference suggests to me this "outsourced" process is a quality critical maintenance service or internal utility (such as a special gas) service otherwise it is not a nonconformity.

John
 
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Big Jim

Super Moderator
#16
klcuellar,

A Service Level Agreement can work very well where no contract exists.

The SLA specifies the objectives and what each party commits to do in fulfilling the objectives such as points of contact, providing access and reviewing costs before doing any work over a certain amount.

The SLA is a controlled document that may comprise the following sections:

A. Purpose
B. Scope
C. Objectives
D. Party A Responsibilities and deliverables
E. Party B Responsibilities and deliverables
F. Corrections and improvements
G. Audit and review

...or just C thru E.

The root causes for lacking this or similar tool are for you to determine but usually include something along the lines of "outsourced services provided without any problems to date".

Best wishes,

John
Unless you believe that the work is to be done for free, clearly there is consideration on both sides here.
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#17
Unless you believe that the work is to be done for free, clearly there is consideration on both sides here.
Big Jim,

Part of a company may previously have been obliged by corporate management to provide gases or maintenance services to other parts of the company.

In contract law, contracts must include consideration but consideration excludes previous obligations.

The internal SLA would not be a contract if a previous obligation existed.

Company customer departments are often charged for corporate services even if they cannot stop payment for nonconforming services; and this is the crux of the problem. Corporate services are often protected from paying the price of nonconformity and may therefore be disinclined to invest in preventing nonconformity.

In any organization, service providers could usefully design, agree and issue specifications for their services to the other parts of the organization even if HR and the other service providers do not charge. Operational-level Agreement is another name for such internal service specifications.

John
 
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Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#18
Jim,

The SLA is nearly a contract but the SLA includes no "consideration".

One of the parties was already obliged to provide the service to the other party. The SLA establishes the criteria for the delivery of the service so both parties can now monitor and control the delivery of that service.

Had there been a promise to pay, a documented specification of some sort would probably exist for the service.
I, of course, am not a lawyer, but if two parties agree that some service is to be performed, and agree upon standards of service, a contract exists.
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#19
I, of course, am not a lawyer, but if two parties agree that some service is to be performed, and agree upon standards of service, a contract exists.
Jim,

From http://www.findlaw.co.uk/law/small_business/business_contracts/500257.html

The Basics of a Contract

The basic elements of a contract are (i) an offer by one party (the ?offeror?), which (ii) is unconditionally accepted by another party (the ?offeree?), together with (iii) an intention to create a legal relationship, and (iv) valid consideration.

For reasons stated above the SLA may not include iii or iv.

You will find that i thru iv are further explained here.

John
Not a Lawyer
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#20
Jim,

From http://www.findlaw.co.uk/law/small_business/business_contracts/500257.html

The Basics of a Contract

The basic elements of a contract are (i) an offer by one party (the ?offeror?), which (ii) is unconditionally accepted by another party (the ?offeree?), together with (iii) an intention to create a legal relationship, and (iv) valid consideration.

For reasons stated above the SLA may not include iii or iv.

You will find that i thru iv are further explained here.

John
Not a Lawyer
Since we're both not lawyers and this is derailing the thread, we'll let it go at this point.
 
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