Audit Programme - Include CB Audits, Customer Audits, Supplier Audits?

J

jm1231

#1
Hi,

We had just being audited on our stage 1. The CB auditor commented on our Audit Programme, according to them we should include other audit such as CB audit, customer audit, supplier audit because the content of our audit programme is the internal audit and management review for two cycle. Did raised it appropriately?

Thanks.
 
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Colin

Quite Involved in Discussions
#2
Re: Audit Programme

Hi,

We had just being audited on our stage 1. The CB auditor commented on our Audit Programme, according to them we should include other audit such as CB audit, customer audit, supplier audit because the content of our audit programme is the internal audit and management review for two cycle. Did raised it appropriately?

Thanks.
An audit programme is specifically required by clause 8.2.2 for your internal audits. How can you schedule when you will receive customers audits? Customer and supplier audits are not even a stated requirement of ISO 9001 so how your auditor can request them to be scheduled is beyond my knowledge.

As we always recommend in these situations - ask him/her to show you where it requires that in the standard.
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#3
Re: Audit Programme

Hi,

We had just being audited on our stage 1. The CB auditor commented on our Audit Programme, according to them we should include other audit such as CB audit, customer audit, supplier audit because the content of our audit programme is the internal audit and management review for two cycle. Did raised it appropriately?

Thanks.
Clause 4.4.5 Of ISO 14001 refers only to the internal audit programme of your EMS , so what your CB auditor said is a "desiderata" of his and not a requirement of the standard.
The finding is not appropriate to me. Was this a non conformity or only an observation?:bigwave:
 
J

jm1231

#4
Re: Audit Programme

They said, during stage 1, they dont issue NC's so they do it as observation. But they warned me that if no action taken during stage 2, it could turn into NC's!
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#5
Re: Audit Programme

They said, during stage 1, they dont issue NC's so they do it as observation. But they warned me that if no action taken during stage 2, it could turn into NC's!
It does not seem a good approach of the auditor to me.
The "shall" is not present in the clause and the clause is clear enough.
On the other audit, if he/she suggests to have an audit plan including all the item. this is another story, but in this case he/she is acting as a consultant and not CB auditor.
I would like to have other opinions from other covers.:bigwave:
 

harry

Super Moderator
#6
Re: Audit Programme

They said, during stage 1, they dont issue NC's so they do it as observation. But they warned me that if no action taken during stage 2, it could turn into NC's!
Hmm, interesting people/auditor you have over there. Tell them that:

1. You only engage them to audit to the requirements of ISO 9001: 2008 and nothing more.

2. The other audits are outside your control as far as timing, scope, independence, etc

3. Since it is stage one, talk to their certification manager or any other authorized personnel - not too late to pull out. If its me, I will demand my money back - these people are afraid to go to court because they can't stand any scrutiny and will be torn to shreds by any experience lawyer.
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#7
Re: Audit Programme

Hmm, interesting people/auditor you have over there. Tell them that:

1. You only engage them to audit to the requirements of ISO 9001: 2008 and nothing more.

2. The other audits are outside your control as far as timing, scope, independence, etc

3. Since it is stage one, talk to their certification manager or any other authorized personnel - not too late to pull out. If its me, I will demand my money back - these people are afraid to go to court because they can't stand any scrutiny and will be torn to shreds by any experience lawyer.
Hi,
I responded to jm1231 cover in terms of ISO 14001 clauses , because I assumed he wanted to know about that standard clauses , reading and responding to his questions to other contemporary posts about EMS standard.
I agree with you that also ISO 9001 do not forecast what the CB auditor wanted.:bigwave:
 
#8
Hi,

We had just being audited on our stage 1. The CB auditor commented on our Audit Programme, according to them we should include other audit such as CB audit, customer audit, supplier audit because the content of our audit programme is the internal audit and management review for two cycle. Did raised it appropriately?

Thanks.
This is complete rubbish and you should contact your CB and ask them to send an auditor who is objective to do the stage 2!
 
J

jm1231

#9
Re: Audit Programme

Actually, that was not the only weird result that they noted on thier stage 1, they seems to be doing consultation and they are debulging from the ISO9011 standard. Do you want to read their other weird audit result. I will post it if you want to and it was the first audit I experienced too many debates going around.
 

krishkaar

Involved In Discussions
#10
Is the applicable standard ISO 9001:2008 OR ISO/TS 16949:2009?
It is true that you cannot schedule your audits taking into account these other audits. But, the standard in two sections (8.2.2 and 8.2.2.1) makes a reference to ......any other quality management requirements.....and
.....................actions taken without undue delay to eliminate detected nonconformities and their causes.
Hence, defining the audit scope by including these, it is expected that your internal audits and the internal auditors verify these also for effectiveness of the actions taken. If any gap(s), the internal auditor reports the same.
 
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