Audit Programme - Include CB Audits, Customer Audits, Supplier Audits?

#11
Is the applicable standard ISO 9001:2008 OR ISO/TS 16949:2009?
It is true that you cannot schedule your audits taking into account these other audits. But, the standard in two sections (8.2.2 and 8.2.2.1) makes a reference to ......any other quality management requirements.....and
.....................actions taken without undue delay to eliminate detected nonconformities and their causes.
Hence, defining the audit scope by including these, it is expected that your internal audits and the internal auditors verify these also for effectiveness of the actions taken. If any gap(s), the internal auditor reports the same.
I think this is a somewhat different matter. You CAN schedule audits depending on external audits! But the CB auditor saying that their audit programme MUST include them is different. Putting together a 12 month calendar of audits, including the external ones, is impractical, however, taking them into consideration, when scheduling an internal audit is a subtle but important difference.

If the CB auditor found no evidence of that being considered, they might have good reason to make such a statement, but to demand their inclusion in the programe is wrong.
 
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Richard Regalado

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#12
Hi,

We had just being audited on our stage 1. The CB auditor commented on our Audit Programme, according to them we should include other audit such as CB audit, customer audit, supplier audit because the content of our audit programme is the internal audit and management review for two cycle. Did raised it appropriately?

Thanks.
Hi. It's just a comment ("should" right?). Anyone can comment on anything. Has the comment found its way into the audit report? You may consider it as an opportunity for improvement.

Including external audits on the audit programme is being done by some organizations. It is an added input to audit planning, ensuring that internal audits and supplier audits are evenly spaced out and resources are provided for both.

For your customer audits, you may ask the customer for this information and plug the information to your audit programme.

You will then have a timetable on when ALL the audits would happen and allow you to plan for audits, both internal and external, ahead of schedule.
 

qusys

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#13
Re: Audit Programme

Actually, that was not the only weird result that they noted on thier stage 1, they seems to be doing consultation and they are debulging from the ISO9011 standard. Do you want to read their other weird audit result. I will post it if you want to and it was the first audit I experienced too many debates going around.
Yes, it could be usefull to share the info , so that we could have more details and the precise statement the CB auditor wrote.:bigwave:
 
J

jm1231

#14
Attached is their audit report. Though some of them has grounds to raise it and was acceptable. But the rest, you would agree that it is inappropriate. They do consulting actually, not auditing.
 

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qusys

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#15
Attached is their audit report. Though some of them has grounds to raise it and was acceptable. But the rest, you would agree that it is inappropriate. They do consulting actually, not auditing.
Thnaks a lot.
I think that there is a few confusion.
Are you applying for ISO 9001 or ISO 14001 certification?
I interpreted in a certain way, if you give more precise info also for all covers, they will help so much.
The report is quality and environmental oriented and I do not know what the rules are for your certification body. Lots of Observations seem to be their "desiderata" and I do not on what basis they raised up.:bigwave:
 

RoxaneB

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#16
Hi,

We had just being audited on our stage 1. The CB auditor commented on our Audit Programme, according to them we should include other audit such as CB audit, customer audit, supplier audit because the content of our audit programme is the internal audit and management review for two cycle. Did raised it appropriately?

Thanks.
I agree with the others in that this is not a requirement, however to use such sources as input for continual improvement and as part of your management review could be beneficial.

For example, results from your supplier audit may show that a new product is being developed and your existing equipment is unable to process it....or results from the customer audit may indicate that they will be soon stop accept material that happens to be contained within your product and your management will need to decide how to handle this.

Again...requirement, no...nice to have?...yes.
 

qusys

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#17
I agree with the others in that this is not a requirement, however to use such sources as input for continual improvement and as part of your management review could be beneficial.

For example, results from your supplier audit may show that a new product is being developed and your existing equipment is unable to process it....or results from the customer audit may indicate that they will be soon stop accept material that happens to be contained within your product and your management will need to decide how to handle this.

Again...requirement, no...nice to have?...yes.
Agree with you, but audit results are however an input to management review.
I think that the cover will provide additional details on this topic.
I think there is a confusion because we do not understand yet if it is a stage 1 for ISO 9001 certification or ISO 14001 one.
Considert that stage 1 audit should be only a pass/no pass for stage 2, therefore certification audit. I did not understand the final result of this stage 1.
As the cover said, it seem a sort a consultancy gap assessment.:confused:
 

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
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#18
Agree with you, but audit results are however an input to management review.
I think that the cover will provide additional details on this topic.
I think there is a confusion because we do not understand yet if it is a stage 1 for ISO 9001 certification or ISO 14001 one.
Considert that stage 1 audit should be only a pass/no pass for stage 2, therefore certification audit. I did not understand the final result of this stage 1.
As the cover said, it seem a sort a consultancy gap assessment.:confused:
While the requirement is for audit results, most organizations (in my experience) limit this to ISO internal and external audit findings only, and do not include supplier, customer, contractual, financial, and non-ISO (or non-standard) audits.

While these additional audits may be outside of the scope of an ISO-based QMS or EMS, my point is that an organization wishing to truly adopt a culture and system of improvement and innovation should go beyond the mere requirements.

It sounds as if the external auditor for the original poster has recognized the organizations steps towards CI in the past and perhaps the original observation was simply a means to help them continue on that path.
 
#19
Attached is their audit report. Though some of them has grounds to raise it and was acceptable. But the rest, you would agree that it is inappropriate. They do consulting actually, not auditing.
Now I'm confused! Who is doing this 'stage 1'? You originally posted it was your CB!

Are you using a consultant to do some preparation before you get registered with a CB? It's going to be confusing if the consultant is doing the same kinds of things and calling it the same and then, offering you silly observations like this!

Perhaps you'd clarify for us.
 
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