Audit Schedule for Multi Site Certification

J

joshua_sx1

#11
...The last option is to let your 3rd party auditor "discover" the problem during their audits...
…usually, it is better for your organization to discuss what would be your corrective and/or preventive actions to your nonconformance and/or foreseen nonconformance… instead of taking the risk and see if the external auditor would find it… ISO does not work on that way…
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
#12
…internally? this can be done… provided that you have enough no. of qualified internal auditors on each sites (and that they should be independent from the site they are auditing)…
Not at all - in fact it's advisable to have the auditor from the site being audited. Indeed, as we've done over so many times, there is no requirement for the auditor to be 'independent'..........they just can't audit their own work (which you pointed out in one of your own posts, recently)
 
J

joshua_sx1

#13
(He he he… here we go again… :eek:)

OK, as AndyN said, there is no requirement for the auditor to be 'independent'… - as long as the assigned auditor is not directly involved in the development and implementation of the QMS in the process he is going to audit… :)frust: you know guys, I was having a hard time why you cannot consider those scenarios as “independent”?)

…anyway, just to add (as quoted from another thread), ISO 19011 doesn't say anything about auditors not auditing their own work... ISO 9001 is very specific, but ISO 14001 doesn't prohibit it and neither does, OHSAS 18001, PAS 99, or BS 25999… :notme:

(whew... I hope it'll stop there...)
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#14
…usually, it is better for your organization to discuss what would be your corrective and/or preventive actions to your nonconformance and/or foreseen nonconformance… instead of taking the risk and see if the external auditor would find it… ISO does not work on that way…
If you reread the context of that sentence, you will see I was inferring that sometimes you can use an external auditor to your advantage. Sometimes when no one listens to an internal auditor or manager, when the external auditor writes it up, it has a little more leverage. But, that is a risky move and should not be used often. As an auditor, I don't like it, but I am sure I have been "shown" a few things over the years.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#15
(He he he… here we go again… :eek:)

OK, as AndyN said, there is no requirement for the auditor to be 'independent'… - as long as the assigned auditor is not directly involved in the development and implementation of the QMS in the process he is going to audit… :)frust: you know guys, I was having a hard time why you cannot consider those scenarios as “independent”?)

…anyway, just to add (as quoted from another thread), ISO 19011 doesn't say anything about auditors not auditing their own work... ISO 9001 is very specific, but ISO 14001 doesn't prohibit it and neither does, OHSAS 18001, PAS 99, or BS 25999… :notme:

(whew... I hope it'll stop there...)

The concept of auditors being independent is pretty well ingrained in all the ISO standards and history. And, I would point out, that 19011 applies to 9001 and 14001, and can be applied in principle to 18001. The words change slightly with each iteration, possibly in an attempt to clarify the intent, to stop just this sort of discussion or debate as to what is allowable.

The answer is not black and white. There is a little grey. But the principle is that people should be improving their processes all the time, and should not wait for an audit. And the second is that auditors should have a fresh perspective, not the same perspective they apply to that job every day. And, third, less emphasized in the current version, is they should have some degree of freedom from their direct boss, when they have to write findings.

Now, these are my paraphrases, not quotes from the standards, but I think they do a good job of explaining in plain English what we should look for.

PS Josh, the internal auditors can audit at their own sites without any problem, just not their own work (or processes they have responsibility for).
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#16
If you reread the context of that sentence, you will see I was inferring that sometimes you can use an external auditor to your advantage. Sometimes when no one listens to an internal auditor or manager, when the external auditor writes it up, it has a little more leverage. But, that is a risky move and should not be used often. As an auditor, I don't like it, but I am sure I have been "shown" a few things over the years.
I have used the Third Party Auditor in that way, when I have hit a roadblock on something. Which doesn't happen that many times, but does happen.

The Third Party Auditor is a person that can reiterate your concerns and help you with changes, but don't rely on the Third Party all of the time. If you are in a position, that drives changes, then only use the Third Party Auditor on an occasion. Because relying on the Third Party for changes, only could hurt your goals and aspirations in the Organization, in my opinion.
 
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MichelleD

Involved In Discussions
#17
I truly believe we have the auditors in place. The problem I'm having is that the powers that be came along several months ago and said you will know have a multi site certification without giving us the proper time to make it happen. Everyone is comfortable with the way the are doing the audits at their site and they don't want a knew way of doing things. Even though the registrar pointed out that is an area that could be beefed up. We were chosen as the lead site because we have a mature system in place and we know have to roll reports up on audits, CAR's/PAR's, Quality System, etc.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#18
I truly believe we have the auditors in place. The problem I'm having is that the powers that be came along several months ago and said you will know have a multi site certification without giving us the proper time to make it happen. Everyone is comfortable with the way the are doing the audits at their site and they don't want a knew way of doing things. Even though the registrar pointed out that is an area that could be beefed up. We were chosen as the lead site because we have a mature system in place and we know have to roll reports up on audits, CAR's/PAR's, Quality System, etc.

Based on what you say, then, the only thing you may need is to develop that harmonized multi-site schedule you have discussed.
 

MichelleD

Involved In Discussions
#19
That's where I'm headed but does anyone have a good way I can explain the benefits of having one schedule for all sites. I would appreciate any bites of wisdom that you have. Rather than me just saying "do it":whip: I want to give them some valid reasons why this is a good idea for all of us.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#20
That's where I'm headed but does anyone have a good way I can explain the benefits of having one schedule for all sites. I would appreciate any bites of wisdom that you have. Rather than me just saying "do it":whip: I want to give them some valid reasons why this is a good idea for all of us.

...cuz Corp said so.....

Actually, a multi-site schedule can be a simple matrix made up of the individual schedules:

Corp:
Process # 1
Process # 2
Process # 3

Plant A:
Process # 1
Process # 2
Process # 3

Plant B:
Process # 1
Process # 2
Process # 3

with twelve columns to show the dates the various audits will take place.
 
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