Auditing - Best Practices

E

energy

#41
Re: you'd be surprised

barb butrym said:
if you could walk in my shoes......you would see a different side of things.....:frust: there are some out there that would knowingly not correct a n/c, more than you would think...believe me.
barb,

Is it possible that they do not know that what they are doing is an N/C? Or do they say that they know it isn't right but don't know any other way to do it? Some Auditors think that everybody is as knowledgable as they are. While not being audited to ISO, yet, I have had Auditors from other agencies say "You didn't know that?" I candidly would reply "No, I didn't". On the surface it may appear, to some anal auditors, that I was concealing something. In those situations, I would assure the Auditor that we would do the right thing. And, contrary to what some others would say about an Auditor being impartial, I would ask advice on how to comply.
Now, having said that, no Auditor is going to be able to help me with ISO because I have gotten so smart since joining the Cove! Especially when it comes to providing "Low Hanging Fruit" to keep an unreasonable Auditor busy. :vfunny: Rest assure that I do not group you with those that would pick apples off the ground rather than climb the tree where the fresh stuff is.

:ko: :smokin:
 
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R

Randy Stewart

#42
What NC?

Unfortunately there are those individuals who believe, that by not fixing a nonconformance, that they are making a statement on how bad management is. :bonk:
 
#43
"I don't believe anybody in this profession would knowingly not correct something that they knew was wrong."

Energy, I agree, but if the auditee didn't know there was a nonconformance, then he wouldn't have metioned it to the auditor.
As someone previously mentioned, some auditees delight in creating problems for the company.
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#44
Sam said:

"I don't believe anybody in this profession would knowingly not correct something that they knew was wrong."

Energy, I agree, but if the auditee didn't know there was a nonconformance, then he wouldn't have metioned it to the auditor.
As someone previously mentioned, some auditees delight in creating problems for the company.
_________________________
Sometimes it is not the QM's decision. He/she may be handcuffed -- it has happened to me before.

I can see a situation where a QM may see a NC in advance of an audit but his/her boss or Management refuses to change it or recognize it as such. THe QM is told to let it stand. So, one way for the QM to make sure it gets changed is to "let" the auditor find it and write it up as a NC. The QM gets the job done in a round-about way. It happens.

Mike S.
 
M

M Greenaway

#45
Mike it certainly does happen.

An ex-boss of mine was expert at manipulating the third party audit for his own ends (all in the interests of quality of course).
 
E

energy

#46
Hard to imagine

Sam said:

"I don't believe anybody in this profession would knowingly not correct something that they knew was wrong."

Energy, I agree, but if the auditee didn't know there was a nonconformance, then he wouldn't have metioned it to the auditor.
As someone previously mentioned, some auditees delight in creating problems for the company.
Sam,

I guess I'm a little lost here. :bonk: I didn't see the post where an Auditee deliberately told an Auditor about an N/C he/she knew about to make Management look bad. Someone asked an auditor a question that led to a minor finding. Didn't know it was a problem. But, let's continue with that scenario.

Years ago we had such an individual who engaged our Resident DPRO (Gov't Inspector) in a conversation about the amount of loose hardware that he had to correct on an Electrical Assembly. He then deliberately left the next assembly for the DPRO man to find. He did not come to the Quality Department with his concerns/complaint. This was perceived by the Gov't Inspector as knowingly concealing defective equipment. He (DPRO) then commenced to tell me the entire story from start to finish. It backfired on the Assembler who was written up for poor workmanship because it was his job to ensure all connections were secure. He subsequently left for other employment because his reputation was severely damaged and he was under constant scrutiny. Life's a bit-h. These types of people cannot remain anonymous and will feel the pain associated with such behavior.
Auditors usually don't like it and are smart enough to know when an employee has an axe to grind. To know that there was a N/C, the employee had to have intimate knowledge of what was wrong and can be made responsible for it. You just have to be creative. Management should be able to nip that in the bud. I would and have.
So I guess we can safely say that knowlingly sabotaging a company's effort to demonstrate an effective QMS during an Audit is not one of those good practices. Just getting back on track.
:rolleyes: :ko: :smokin:
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#47
Re: Hard to imagine - NOT!

energy said:

Years ago we had such an individual who engaged our Resident DPRO (Gov't Inspector) in a conversation about the amount of loose hardware that he had to correct on an Electrical Assembly. He then deliberately left the next assembly for the DPRO man to find. He did not come to the Quality Department with his concerns/complaint. This was perceived by the Gov't Inspector as knowingly concealing defective equipment. He (DPRO) then commenced to tell me the entire story from start to finish. It backfired on the Assembler who was written up for poor workmanship because it was his job to ensure all connections were secure. He subsequently left for other employment because his reputation was severely damaged and he was under constant scrutiny. Life's a bit-h. These types of people cannot remain anonymous and will feel the pain associated with such behavior.
________________
What a funny world. Not an audit situation, but similar. Just minutes before reading your story, Energy, I had a situation of an employee trying to win points with the plant manager and a VP by making others look bad. Our business is way down due to the market, we've been thru a layoff, and now a few people are trying to look good by making others look bad, I guess to try to increase their stock. All the while spouting off about teamwork, to boot! He was making claims to a top manager and a VP about the measurement lab's (which I also manage) measurements being bad because we gave significantly different test results on 2 different lots of material that were "as identical as humanly possible". My tech was almost in tears. This jerk spent 10 minutes lecturing and blowing off about this to the plant manager, my tech, and I (and who knows how long on the phone to the VP). Then, I looked carefully at the history of the 2 samples and found that they were different in 2 very significant ways having to do with the mfg. process. The plant manager looked at the data and saw it was true, quieting the jerk for now, who slunk off to his office. He was exposed, but he and the plant manager are buddies, so I doubt much will get done for now. But who knows how often this happens.

You're right, Energy, these kind of guys need to be found out for what they are -- a poison in the system.

It might not be too relevant to this thread, but I needed to blow off some steam. Thanks.

Mike S.
 
#48
Re: I don't know

db said:

Randy, what about "That's confidential information"?
:confused:

If you are bringing someone in to do an audit I would think you want them to be able to help in ALL areas. Besides, if an auditor starts "Telling ALL" it basically destroys their reputation and it wouldn't take lok for the word to get around.

So is there any "confidenital information"?
 

barb butrym

Quite Involved in Discussions
#49
Energy...you are right.....rest assured lots (I almost said most...LOL) of auditors know exactly whats going on re axe to grind.......and don't go there unless they were headed there anyway...shame on them if they do!!!

My comment was for the "not fixing known n/c" part....obvious stuff, stuff they hang their head on when I ask for evidence and then they fess up...Ya, i was meaning to do that but hoped you wouldn't see it stuff. Or give me a lame excuse.......... I agree not everyone knows all n/c are there (including interpretations), and the real "OOPS" stuff is understandable....and certainly forgiveable.(is that a word?)

What you would be most surprised at is the unprepared state of affairs so often encountered. Hosting an audit to your advantage is a talent most people are unaware of....or it comes naturally. (Sort of runs along with an effective CA/PA response?)

barb or Barb? I tend to be low-key :biglaugh:
 
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E

energy

#50
A bad Experience

Just came to mind....What little mind I have left. We had a Customer Audit from one of our best Customers. During a review of our having their latest packaging procedures, the Auditor noticed that we didn't have one of their procedures. They had a Request for Quote where this particular procedure was called out. We never received an order where we had to pack per this procedure. Also, they never provided the procedure with their package. Now, he is here a year later. Having discussed this over a nice dinner at a nice restaurant, we thought that the issue had been resolved amicably. Like, we share the responsibilty for not having their latest and greatest. A week later, we get a SCAR for not having the procedure. Is he right? Absolutely. We should have requested the procedure before quoting as part of an effective contract review. But, he never indicated that he would follow up with an official SCAR. He wrote it up to justify his coming to our plant because we were squeaky clean in all other ares. To show his boss that he should be on the road doing this sort of thing. Maybe I'm getting too old for this s***. Our corrective action answer was to acquire this procedure and preventive was to insure that we have all procedures before responding to quote. This is in spite of never receiving an order where this procedure came into play. In fact, we have about 9 of their procedures and only use two. You can bet that if we received an order, we would have reminded them to send the procedure. Bottom line is that they should send all pertinent documents with their RFQ. But, the Customer is always right..,.sometimes. If I had known this was going to happen, I would have tipped the Chef a twenty to put a fine bone in his Fillet of Sole so that I could administer the Heimlich Manuever on him with my knee in his back resulting in him wearing a neck brace and walking bow-legged for a couple of weeks. What a pr***. :mad: :ko: :smokin:
 
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