Auditing ISO 9001:2000 for Attitude?

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#11
Re: Auditing ISO 9001:2000 for...attitude???

Let's think this thru a bit more:
  • How would you 'write up' a bad attitude?
  • what evidence would you cite?
  • what corrective action response would you expect?
  • How will management likely respond to an "attitude" finding?
anyway just a few thoughts...
I am not certain that a registrar would, or would want to write up a company for bad attitude, but it certainly could fall within the realm of management commitment and customer satisfaction. I think that this is mainly useful to companies as an internal measure IF they truly think that there are problems and truly want to change the company culture. In this day and age, it seems self defeating to not look at your internal satisfaction levels.
 
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Sidney Vianna

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#12
Re: Auditing ISO 9001:2000 for...attitude???

In this day and age, it seems self defeating to not look at your internal satisfaction levels.
That is true, but like the saying goes, be careful what you wish for, because if the organization is not prepared to change the fundamental causes for low employee morale, it is actually worse to probe it.

Will the corrective action be
 

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#13
Re: Auditing ISO 9001:2000 for...attitude???

Sydney, so true, that is why I said that management must be willing to change the culture.
 
#14
Re: Auditing ISO 9001:2000 for...attitude???

My short answer was "no" but I am still thinking about the idea.
Keep thinking about it, because you can. This may be one of those times when an indirect approach is preferrable, however. The cause of the dissent may be easier to tag as a finding than the dissent itself.

If the negative attitude from the employees or management (work environment) could ultimately affect the conformity to product requirements, then that might fall under Paragraph 6.4 of ISO9001:2000, in my opinion.
My point exactly.

I really like ISO9004 and too bad most corporations don't see the advantage of implementing a system within the guidelines of ISO9004.
And there we have it:

ISO 9004:2000 said:
Management should ensure that the work environment has a positive influence on motivation, satisfaction and performance of people in order to enhance the performance of the organization. Creation of a suitable work environment, as a combination of human and physical factors, should include consideration of

— creative work methods and opportunities for greater involvement to realize the potential of people in the organization,
— safety rules and guidance, including the use of protective equipment,
— ergonomics,
— workplace location,
— social interaction,
— facilities for people in the organization,
— heat, humidity, light, airflow, and
— hygiene, cleanliness, noise, vibration and pollution.
/Claes
 

Coury Ferguson

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Staff member
Super Moderator
#15
Re: Auditing ISO 9001:2000 for...attitude???

Thanks for your interpretation, Coury.

I like the idea - just trying to find a way to justify adding it to the audit function. I am not doing it "just to do it" or to please the registrar - I just want to try and determine as best as possible what is really going on.

I've heard stories - but they're just stories, that's the problem. Trying to find out if dept. A held up Supervisor X's order on purpose due to retaliating against X is a different matter...and I've got my work cut out for me on this project.

I'd welcome as many ideas as possible and am really hoping for a success story on this issue (more than one would be very encouraging!!!)
Since you have a "shall" in the paragraph, it is auditable. The determination of the affect and compliance, can be done via Interviews with personnel (Work Environment). Simply ask questions that get answers (open ended questions). not just the "Yes or No" response.

For example: How do you feel about...? What do you feel the impact is...? Why do you feel...? What do you think could...? and so on.

These are just some of the questions than can be asked when performing the internal audit. In general, you want to ask the open questions similar to the above during all of the process reviews (internal audit).
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#16
Re: Auditing ISO 9001:2000 for...attitude???

Since you have a "shall" in the paragraph, it is auditable. The determination of the affect and compliance, can be done via Interviews with personnel (Work Environment). Simply ask questions that get answers (open ended questions). not just the "Yes or No" response.

For example: How do you feel about...? What do you feel the impact is...? Why do you feel...? What do you think could...? and so on.

These are just some of the questions than can be asked when performing the internal audit. In general, you want to ask the open questions similar to the above during all of the process reviews (internal audit).
What do you do with the information? If there are significant morale and attitude issues, auditing isn't going to tell you anything you don't already know. Furthermore, poor morale and attitude are always the product of defective leadership, so how do you propose to fix that with audit data?
 

Coury Ferguson

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Staff member
Super Moderator
#17
Re: Auditing ISO 9001:2000 for...attitude???

What do you do with the information? If there are significant morale and attitude issues, auditing isn't going to tell you anything you don't already know. Furthermore, poor morale and attitude are always the product of defective leadership, so how do you propose to fix that with audit data?
I was pointing out how to develop data and ask the questions.

What do you do with the information? If there are significant morale and attitude issues, auditing isn't going to tell you anything you don't already know.
The information would be presented in the review sessions with the Top Management. Maybe, Top management isn't aware of these issues. There is no documented evidence of the Work Environment issues. The questions and interviews would produce the "objective (hard)" evidence of the issues.

Furthermore, poor morale and attitude are always the product of defective leadership, so how do you propose to fix that with audit data?
That is most likely true. As I said in the reply, maybe Top Management isn't aware of these issues. How can someone try to improve if they are not aware that these issues exist?
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#18
Re: Auditing ISO 9001:2000 for...attitude???

Unless a workforce has a high degree of discipline and/or a great work ethic (which I have seen to replace morale) I very much agree that morale can affect product quality, and in tangible enough ways if you look at it in effects like absenteeism, presenteeism, turnover and other versions of unreadiness including a lack of attention to detail. Management should be interested in this but a paternalistic management team may be unwilling to see itself through its employees' eyes.

It's possible for the auditor to ask personnel if he/she thinks this-or-that motivational program is effective, and why. If the auditor gets a blank look or hesitation, the auditor could say something like "I was wondering if the results could routinely favor some group or another, and I wanted to get an idea of why that is."

Beware the can of worms this could open up. Objectivity is key. But, given the hope that the auditor him/herself is seen as neutral, who is is better prepared to ask such open ended questions?

Responses to open ended questions are qualitative data. The frequency with which they collect into groups can be quantified.

Dr. Phil might say to find the currency that works with the target of change, and use that currency to leverage change.

If management believes it is a benevolent dictatorship but that its children appreciate the relationship, the emotional contradiction may be difficult to resolve.

But unless the place is a sandbox money should still communicate in the failure of all else. You can use a quality cost calculator to communicate the business interests of reducing turnover and absenteeism, project the dollar value of even a 10% reduction of even just one kind of failure, and help them to connect the dots between their employees' interests and their interests.

With the calculator you can factor in the costs of incentives that you can identify if you choose to operate as internal consultant. What would matter to the people--something intangible, like respect (that can be hard) or something tangible, like a day off with pay for the best performing team or on a rotating basis (when teams are bound to perform unequally).

In the end, money tends to talk loudest but it's up to you to help them understand the links between unhappiness and profit because they probably haven't been trained in that.
 
Last edited:

RCW

Quite Involved in Discussions
#19
Re: Auditing ISO 9001:2000 for...attitude???

Attitude isn't in the standard, per se, but does anyone try to gauge the overall feelings of morale while doing internal audits?
I'm currently working on a set of internal audits. With some people, but not with all, their answers to my general questions plus their emotions and details of going into the process being audited send some clear signals.

This information could be used at two levels:
1) If it's truly a personnel problem, most likely it would have to be dealt with at a HR or management level.
2) It also could be a process problem, where one group has to deal with problems further down stream due to no initial handling further upstream. (Make sense, kind of? The coffee hasn't totally jump started my brain yet.)
 
L

little__cee

#20
Thanks for all responses.

Top Management had outside consultants administer an anonymous survey which touched on some morale issues and the results were grouped into categories (sorry, don't have them available right now) and I was thinking I could present general audit findings to Top Management (possibly during management review?) in terms of those categories generated from the surveys.
 
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