Auditor Certification - IRCA/RAB 5 day lead auditor course and exam - Bad Experience

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Carl Keller

Wallace,

I don't think it matters which registration you have. Just get one of them.

I took the CQA exam in 1994 before I even witnessed an audit and although I did not pass, I was not far off. I took the BSI/CEEM 5 day course a couple of months later in 1994 and passed. I enjoyed it, but it was tough. My certificate says "This is to Certify....has successfuly completed a Lead Assessor Examination. I have included "Certified Lead Assessor" on my resume' and business cards ever since.

If I thought there was an advantage to being a CQA, I would have done it by now.

I have since become an ASQ Certified Quality Manager and my feeling is that although sometimes the examinations do not reflect the reality of the workplace, usually the ASQ primer courses do.

I think one thing you will need to do is go into the course/exam as objectively as possible. Forget everything you know about auditing and just focus on the data they give you. After you get the certificate in your hand, you can get back to the way things ACTUALLY work in the audit arena.

Most of the ASQ based primers (like Quality Council of Indiana) are pretty informative.

The ASQ exam offers the added benefit of being able to study at your own pace.

I have no doubt that if you took the 5 day Lead Assessor Course with another firm, you would pass it, but it really comes down choice.

I feel your pain!

Best of luck.

Carl
 
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outoftown

As a CQA since 1992 and having taken the lead assessor course the same year, as barb stated, these are two different animals. The CQA is proof of mastering a body of knowledge, but the lead assessor course is the mastering of a standard's terminology. I don't believe Wallace really meant "I firmly believe that the best auditor is the experienced internal auditor". Having been a third party auditor for 8 years, I have met my share of competent and incompetent 1st, 2nd and 3rd party auditors. I believe experience plays a part, but the ability to understand the requirements to which you are auditing to is key. You can do this without mastering ISO terminology if you audit to your own procedures rather than the standard. For internal audit systems set up this way, the lead assessor course may not be very helpful. Wallace, most lead assessor course providers have to be accredited by the RAB. I would recommend complaining directly to the RAB, even at this late date. I would have demanded a refund. Hopefully you will give it another chance with another provider. Ask for references first! For internal auditors, I am steering my clients toward newer value-added auditing courses instead of the lead assessor or internal auditing courses. Good luck.
 
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WALLACE

Outoftown,
Thanks for your comments, I don't want to be misunderstood so, I will say that auditors of quality systems who assess 1st, 2nd and 3rd party areas have a common goal of obtaining objective evidence of compliance and evidence of improvements that, may be required by the respective standard of compliance. You are very right though when you state that you have found these auditors to be good and bad at what they practice yet, I have come to believe that the most proficient auditor is the one who has had his or her beginings within the first party arena.
Wallace.
 
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WALLACE

Outoftown,
Thanks for your comments, I don't want to be misunderstood so, I will say that auditors of quality systems who assess 1st, 2nd and 3rd party areas have a common goal of obtaining objective evidence of compliance and evidence of improvements that, may be required by the respective standard of compliance. You are very right though when you state that you have found these auditors to be good and bad at what they practice yet, I have come to believe that the most proficient auditor is the one who has had his or her beginings within the first party arena.
Wallace.
 
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lou hannigan

Originally posted by Carl Keller:
Wallace,

I don't think it matters which registration you have. Just get one of them.

I took the CQA exam in 1994 before I even witnessed an audit and although I did not pass, I was not far off. I took the BSI/CEEM 5 day course a couple of months later in 1994 and passed. I enjoyed it, but it was tough. My certificate says "This is to Certify....has successfuly completed a Lead Assessor Examination. I have included "Certified Lead Assessor" on my resume' and business cards ever since. <HR>Carl,

You are unbelievable!!! You are not a Certified Lead Assessor just because you took a five day course. The RAB has established rigorous and comprehensive requirements to become a Certified Lead Assessor. Only individuals who have proven themselves to pre-existing Lead Assessors, employers, and clients can obtain this level.

Do you also exaggerate about your other credentials?

Lou

If I thought there was an advantage to being a CQA, I would have done it by now.

I have since become an ASQ Certified Quality Manager and my feeling is that although sometimes the examinations do not reflect the reality of the workplace, usually the ASQ primer courses do.

I think one thing you will need to do is go into the course/exam as objectively as possible. Forget everything you know about auditing and just focus on the data they give you. After you get the certificate in your hand, you can get back to the way things ACTUALLY work in the audit arena.

Most of the ASQ based primers (like Quality Council of Indiana) are pretty informative.

The ASQ exam offers the added benefit of being able to study at your own pace.

I have no doubt that if you took the 5 day Lead Assessor Course with another firm, you would pass it, but it really comes down choice.

I feel your pain!

Best of luck.

Carl



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Carl Keller

Lou, Take it easy, Take a prozac or something.
Let me get this right, if I study the primer and pass the ASQ CQA exam, I get a certificate that states I am a "Certified Quality Auditor" even if I never performed an audit, and you are OK with making that claim, but if I take the 5 day CEEM/BSI course and pass the exam, I can't claim that I am a "Certified Lead Assessor", even though the Certificate states "this is to certify I have succesfully passed the exam that is recognized by the Management Board of the Registration scheme for Lead Assessors?

Sorry "I HAVE A DOCUMENT THAT STATES I SUCCESSFULY COMPLETED THE LEAD ASSESSOR EXAMINATION RECOGNIZED BY THE MANAGEMENT BOARD OF THE REGISTRATION SCHEME FOR LEAD ASSESSORS" would not fit on my business card or I would have used it to keep from offending you. Make no mention of the fact that the RAB was started by the ASQ, but the CQA certification seems to fall outside the RAB "Rigorous and Comprehensive requirements" you mention. Come on, I have never mis-represented myself in anything. I make no claim to be an RAB Provisional Auditor, ASQ CQA or be RAB "Registered". I am well respected in my profession and my auditing technique. I can and have put my credentials to the test on numerous occasions. For you to suggest that I am exaggerating my credentials is less than professional and arrogant.
 
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steveski

in ref to the remark from Lou Hannigan to Carl Keller "you are unbelievable" ... you have to be kidding me Lou. CQA, ASG, RAB, blah, blah, blah... they are all one & the same... the PRICE of working in the Quality field. I think the quality industry is working overtime trying to create courses & certifications ONLY to get more money out of me! I just attended a RAB, IRCA, IATCA process auditing class (statamatrix)& didn't learn anything! What a TOTAL waste of time! But... I DID get a CERTIFICATE!! No test, no nothing, but I'm a "certified ISO 9001:2000 process auditor" .. damn, that would look GOOD on my business card!! I also attended a CEEM/BSI ISO 14001 Lead Assessor class last year. In the class were numerous RAB, BLAH BLAH, certified 9000 Lead Assessor's already working for registrars ..... some of these guys could not balance a checkbook let alone audit to the standard (either standard!) Now let me ask you Lou, WHO certified these guys???? Other "certified lead assessors", that's who! Face it Lou, quite a number of "quality" organizations a-la ASQ, RAB, BSI, etc... are FOR PROFIT businesses, in it for the money $$, REGARDLESS of the flowery mission statement, or quality policy. What you should be complaining about is the "true" cost of your "RAB" certification. You did the 5 day course & then fulfilled all of the rab criteria... how much did your piece of paper cost you Lou? And do you really think you are a more competent auditor than me or Carl? It sounds like you are angry because you paid & we didn't! From where I sit, the ONLY benefit of RAB certification is to be able to work for a registrar. If you were not RAB certified, the registrar would get you the cert! Don't you think it's obvious that there is collusion among all these international groups to make more & more money not only from us, the quality professional, but from business as well. There oughta be an investigation!!!!!
 
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David Mullins

I've been tempted to say this before, and this time I'm going to. This thread emanates from a guy who obviously has a problem with his power supply, CPU or RAM. The course clearly questioned his perspective and understanding, so he questions the course. Looks like human nature to me.

Let's not get hung up with a testosterone contest about whose course is bigger.

People are different, perceptions are different.
Viva la difference.

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WALLACE

Now Now Guys,
I hoped that this topic would bring out the best in us so called quality auditors, lets not argue and insult each other.
I agree with Steveski when it was said that The only benefit derived from having the Registrar offered 5 day LA course and exam (passed) is to be able to be employable to a registrar for 3rd party registration audits.
I am of the opinion that there should be some form of recognized and universaly accepted form of quality auditor certification other than the registrar controlled certification process, the fact that the 5 day LA course and exam does in no way offer any prospective quality auditor the credentials that may be needed to get a leg up on their jouney to offer confidence to any future clients or employers that they indeed have the credentials of recognition and competence.
Hands on experience seems to be a real problem for prospective quality auditors, I decided to offer my time free of charge to potential auditees for the purpose of gaining experience of auditing a quality system, with the agreement that my audit time would be recorded and verified to identify my audit time and experience to future auditees and employers.
I do however continue to lean towards the ASQ CQA certification here in North America, the ASQ seems to have an excellent support system for potential and experienced auditors of quality.
Wallace.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
I figured I would just jump on in here somewhere. I kinda liked what steveski said about the 14K LA course he went to. It supports what I have stated elsewhere in the Forum about most 14K LA's I've become aware of, and that most of them don't know diddly about environmental anything. There must be a scam going on because Registrars are begging for certified EMS-LA's and here I sit on my butt with my EMS-LA credentials from the RAB with no responses from those folks. Maybe they're playing the good buddy system waiting for the 9K guys.

Hey, I've nothing against you quality guys at all but quality and environmental are 2 different fields that demand special skills and understanding beyond the "Standard". I'm an Environmental Professional who just happens to have some neat abbreviations at the end of his name. My environmental training and background go a little beyond the 5-day LA course, and to someone that should mean something.....but apparently not to Registrars.

Am I getting bitter....you bet. My recommendation to business folks would be to self declare conformance (if acceptable by the stakeholders and customers), and use a 3rd party auditor like me to verify the conformance, and screw the registrars until the very end. If folks don't absolutely need to register, they can save their money, and I'll help them.
 
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