Auditor had no findings for last few years - Fed up with the whole thing...

Colin

Quite Involved in Discussions
#21
Agreed Wes, if we carry on the way we are going, asking for a 3rd party certificate will become like sending a supplier questionnaire - most people don't know why they do it but someone told them they should so they do.

Perhaps we are heading back to more 2nd party audits which (in my experience) are more targeted and focused on the things which a customer feels are most important to them.
 
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Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#22
Given what Sidney writes, is it logical to posit the primary solution to the situation of "sign and go" audits lies in educating the OEMs (and other customers who demand certificates of registration to ISO QMS Standards) about the relative worth of some audits opposed to other audits? With such education, those demanding registration to third party ISO QMS Standards might impose restrictions on the nature of third party audits much in the same way automotive OEMs add customer-specific requirements to ISO 14969.
There are few ISO 9001-certified companies that don't include customer requirements in their own QMS requirements, despite the fact that it's not explicitly required as it is in 16949. The problem is that ISO registration has become a goal/requirement in and of itself, rather than there being a requirement for a rational quality management system. In other words, we see again the metonymical phenomenon of conflating the container with the thing it contains. If an OEM has a requirement for all suppliers to be ISO-registered, and all suppliers are ISO-registered, the requirement has been satisfied, regardless of whether the registration has any intrinsic value. This is why we continue to see second-party audits, an exercise that third-party certification was intended to obviate.

What's not happening, imo, is what should be happening: when an OEM does a supplier audit and discrepancies are found that cast doubt on the efficacy of third-party audits, the registrars should be notified by the customer, and that should continue to happen until a state of equilibrium is achieved wherein the customer has confidence in suppliers' certificates and second-party audits can be eliminated.
 
T

triad

#23
We have just finished our surveillance audit. Our auditor found had no findings; no majors...no minors...for about the 5th or 6th straight audit...

All a competent auditor would have to do is walk around and see all the non-conformances..both majors and minors...

As a result, top management believe we have a great QMS and are meeting requirements...and yet we continue to produce bad product, ship bad product and do a very poor job on corrective actions; lack of control of non-conforming product is an everyday issue.

Document control is a disaster...

We don't even have our process defined clearly....

And yet...here we are with another great ISO audit....:mad:
who is your CB?
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#24
What's not happening, imo, is what should be happening: when an OEM does a supplier audit and discrepancies are found that cast doubt on the efficacy of third-party audits, the registrars should be notified by the customer, and that should continue to happen until a state of equilibrium is achieved wherein the customer has confidence in suppliers' certificates and second-party audits can be eliminated.
I refer to that as ACCOUNTABILITY. Until everyone is held accountable to the INTENDED process, we will add accreditation and certification layers to the business world, without clear benefits to the parties involved.

Until everyone involved is educated and serious about certification as a COMPONENT of supplier oversight, the dysfunctions of the certification sector will be exposed, as the original post of this thread.
 
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M

MIREGMGR

#25
We don't particularly care about the certificates on the wall in the lobby, in that while our customers do require them, we know that they could be obtained easily if that was useful in itself.

Instead we value the regular external NB audit as a check that our top-managerial drive for effective systems and our internal audits are sufficiently rigorous that we are "ahead of the wolves" in regard to aggressive second party audits by our major customers.

In that respect, we don't even consider NBs that we hear are "easy". We want "hard", because that's the best simulation we can buy of our major customers' audit teams, who we know from experience are "hard".

In fact, I wish we had the option with our NB of requesting extra rigor.
 

joherjerwalla

Starting to get Involved
#26
I am an Auditor for the last 17 Years.

Who is responsible for this situation ? Not only my fraternity . But all you Guys Out there Who are now Experts on Quality !! You have come on this forum , because all you Guys did some kind of Audit related activities in your career & wanted some info from this platform. So Do not complain.

ISO 9000 & related Certifications has done MORE GOOD than HARM to the whole International community. ISO 9000 though is not a regulatory requirement a NC is always an Black spot. The organisations are generally aware of these existing Gaps, but are not willing to correct/ change it. A NC close out is also Farce, if issued to such organisations. It is the Management Commitment which is Lacking, in many cases.

Finally, if you guys can survive making NC products, non- complying with industry practices, violating regulations..... We have the equal right to Survive--- Servicing Guys like you sometimes !!
The Gaps in a system are due to constraints a Management has. The final user or the Customer decides whether the Organisation survives or not.

We verify that the Intent of the Standard is complied or not.
Do not complain that we are Hurry to Catch a Flight !! YES we are in a Hurry because we are in this Business of travelling for for 2-4 Hrs & working 8-10 Hrs almost daily.
We have to be doing this Thankless job again at some other site next Day !!

NO Organisation can be a perfect 10.
If you are around 8-9 you survive like TOYOTA. If you are 5-6 you get a Breather like GM. And no commitment to systems , like the Case discussed - Move along with the crowd or Search an alternate job.

Best Regards
 
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BradM

Staff member
Admin
#27
I am an Auditor for the last 17 Years.
Who is responsible for this situation ? Not only my fraternity . But all you Guys Out there Who are now Experts on Quality !! You have come on this forum , because all you Guys did some kind of Audit related activities in your career & wanted some info from this platform. So Do not complain.
ISO 9000 & related Certifications has done MORE GOOD than HARM to the whole International community. ISO 9000 though is not a regulatory requirement a NC is always an Black spot. The organisations are generally aware of these existing Gaps, but are not willing to correct/ change it. A NC close out is also Farce, if issued to such organisations. It is the Management Commitment which is Lacking, in many cases.
Finally, if you guys can survive making NC products, non- complying with industry practices, violating regulations..... We have the equal right to Survive--- Servicing Guys like you sometimes !!
The Gaps in a system are due to constraints a Management has. The final user or the Customer decides whether the Organisation survives or not.
We verify that the Intent of the Standard is complied or not.
Do not complain that we are Hurry to Catch a Flight !! YES we are in a Hurry because we are in this Business of travelling for for 2-4 Hrs & working 8-10 Hrs almost daily.
We have to be doing this Thankless job again at some other site next Day !!
NO Organisation can be a perfect 10.
If you are around 8-9 you survive like TOYOTA. If you are 5-6 you get a Breather like GM. And no commitment to systems , like the Case discussed - Move along with the crowd or Search an alternate job.
Best Regards
That's a pretty rough post, don't you think?;) In fairness, though, you make a point. But if everyone keeps giving everyone else what they want, when is change ever going to occur? Who is going to drive the change?

This issue is everyone's fault; little secrets, people turning their backs, looking the other way; talking at the problem. At least those like us who are in the quality profession are passionate enough to talk about the problems to try to come up with solutions. :)
 
M

MIREGMGR

#28
...when an OEM does a supplier audit and discrepancies are found that cast doubt on the efficacy of third-party audits, the registrars should be notified by the customer, and that should continue to happen until a state of equilibrium is achieved wherein the customer has confidence in suppliers' certificates and second-party audits can be eliminated.
My guess is that a more likely equilibrium point is where we are now:

1. "Easy" NBs sell services to companies whose customers have "easy" supplier audit teams, or don't require anything but certificates.

2. "Hard" NBs sell services to companies whose customers have "hard" supplier audit teams, and have no intention of ever accepting just a certificate because they know that "easy" NBs exist.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#29
My guess is that a more likely equilibrium point is where we are now:

1. "Easy" NBs sell services to companies whose customers have "easy" supplier audit teams, or don't require anything but certificates.

2. "Hard" NBs sell services to companies whose customers have "hard" supplier audit teams, and have no intention of ever accepting just a certificate because they know that "easy" NBs exist.
By describing this as a state of equilibrium, you're saying that (due to your #1) the system is broken and can't be fixed. If there's no faith in a significant portion of the certificates, the companies who exemplify the "right" way of doing things will find that there's no value in their certificates when it comes to new business.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#30
I am an Auditor for the last 17 Years.

Who is responsible for this situation ? Not only my fraternity . But all you Guys Out there Who are now Experts on Quality !! You have come on this forum , because all you Guys did some kind of Audit related activities in your career & wanted some info from this platform. So Do not complain.
I have "come on this forum" to help others and learn from others. That's why most of us who post regularly are here. No one is saying that your "fraternity" is the sole cause of lack of faith in certification, but the OP is living proof that there are some CBs that contribute significantly to the problem. If people don't complain, nothing will improve.

ISO 9000 & related Certifications has done MORE GOOD than HARM to the whole International community. ISO 9000 though is not a regulatory requirement a NC is always an Black spot. The organisations are generally aware of these existing Gaps, but are not willing to correct/ change it. A NC close out is also Farce, if issued to such organisations. It is the Management Commitment which is Lacking, in many cases.
I agree that the root cause is poor leadership, but as they say, it takes two to tango. All of the beleaguered people out there who are trying desperately to get their top management to understand reality are seriously undermined by CBs that run around rubber-stamping everything in sight, giving top management no incentive to change.

Finally, if you guys can survive making NC products, non- complying with industry practices, violating regulations..... We have the equal right to Survive--- Servicing Guys like you sometimes !!
The Gaps in a system are due to constraints a Management has. The final user or the Customer decides whether the Organisation survives or not.
Wow. You have an "equal right to survive" by bestowing your imprimatur on non-deserving clients. Thank you for confirming the nature of the problem.

We verify that the Intent of the Standard is complied or not.
Do not complain that we are Hurry to Catch a Flight !! YES we are in a Hurry because we are in this Business of travelling for for 2-4 Hrs & working 8-10 Hrs almost daily.
We have to be doing this Thankless job again at some other site next Day !!
I thought you just agreed that you (and/or your employer) have the right to certify companies when "the Intent of the Standard" is not achieved. I will complain if you're in a hurry to catch a flight if your haste means that you don't have enough time to do what you need to do. Don't complain to me that you have to catch a plane if there's still work to be done.
If you are around 8-9 you survive like TOYOTA. If you are 5-6 you get a Breather like GM. And no commitment to systems , like the Case discussed - Move along with the crowd or Search an alternate job.
Yes--move along with the crowd that's rearranging the proverbial deck chairs on the Titanic, and don't look to CBs and their auditors to assume any responsibility.

That thing down at the end of your leg is your foot. It's not the target.
 
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