Auditor had no findings for last few years - Fed up with the whole thing...

S

somerqc

#61
It is quite bizarre - unfortunately, many companies believe that nobody internally could have the ability to do what an external auditor can.

It took me years to convince top management of this. Now we are coming around as top management has figured out that if we don't measure and monitor the important things by the time we react it is too late.

Sometimes top management just needs someone to take the "data" and translate it to lost sales or lost revenue or lost profit. THEN you tend to get managements ear if it is significant.
 
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J

JaneB

#62
I don't know how much interaction you have with the auditor; however, if the auditor finds something that is related to an existing open CAR I ask him to note this during de-brief meeting or the closing meeting.

Why? In my case, it gives "weight" to findings from internal audits and shows that the internal audits are effective in finding weaknesses or areas of improvement in our system.
Yes, I agree. Smart teamwork - yet another reason why it pays to choose auditing bodies carefully, to get good auditor/s. On many occasion I (or a client) have worked with an external auditor to shape a message so it's more likely to be listened/responded to. Pity it's a technique that has to be used, but one can always hope (as well as work towards) greater maturity and understanding on the part of management. Meanwhile, use what works. Like your 'translate it into terms they can understand' . :yes:
 
J

JaneB

#63
It's an almost bizarre statement to make, isn't it - "We're good because someone (the CB auditor) from outside says we are"! What happened to the use of data - product, process and customer to tell the business if they're any good?
Nahhhh. Why would you wanna bother with real data? :lol:
 
T

tyker

#64
It's an almost bizarre statement to make, isn't it - "We're good because someone (the CB auditor) from outside says we are"! What happened to the use of data - product, process and customer to tell the business if they're any good?
But isn't the external auditor's report also data?
If it can't be relied upon to give accurate feedback, what's the point of continuing with the registration?
 
#65
But isn't the external auditor's report also data?
If it can't be relied upon to give accurate feedback, what's the point of continuing with the registration?
Indeed it is, no doubt. However, in the context of the discussion, it appears that' it's all this organization's management were utilizing to come to that conclusion about the effectiveness of the qms...which is foolhardy!
 
J

JaneB

#66
But isn't the external auditor's report also data?
If it can't be relied upon to give accurate feedback, what's the point of continuing with the registration?
In a general sense, yes, you're right. External auditors' reports are objective feedback. And could or should be one piece of data that top management would or should take into consideration.

But in the context of this particular discussion, that's not at all what is happening. Hence the interchange between Andy and me is about: in this particular case (as the original poster says), management is or has been ignoring anything other than their external auditor's reports (including their own internal auditing reports). And are now paying the price.
 
J

JaneB

#67
But isn't the external auditor's report also data?
If it can't be relied upon to give accurate feedback, what's the point of continuing with the registration?
Anyone who relies upon an external auditor alone for their view is, as Andy says, foolhardy. That is not supposed to be the point of external registration, nor the sole criteria of its value!
 
L

LSS Master

#68
As always, great discussion and many valid viewpoints. I'd like to share my view of Third Party Audits and Auditors that has served me well.

In my view, the primary purpose of a Third Party Audit is to help improve the QMS. To that end, at the opening meeting, I relate to the auditor(s) that I expect him/her/them to find and document specific areas in which we can improve the QMS. The suggestions may take the form of nonconformities (major or minor), comments, findings, etc. - it matters little to me.

This statement usually elicits a reaction from the auditor(s), and ALWAYS yields several great suggestions for improvements to the QMS

If I am going to pay for the audit, I expect to obtain some value from the investment, not just a certificate to hang on the wall.

Thanks for the opportunity to share!
 
B

bazzle - 2012

#69
You can always "steer" the auditor and discuss issues you are not sure about..:read:

Get my drift?

Bazzle
 
T

tyker

#70
Anyone who relies upon an external auditor alone for their view is, as Andy says, foolhardy. That is not supposed to be the point of external registration, nor the sole criteria of its value!
When determining the effectiveness of the management system, I agree that management should use a whole raft of data. But, when evaluating the compliance of a system to a standard such as ISO 9001, they generally have only 2 sources of data, the internal auditor and the external auditor. When the results are divergent, as in this case, management can choose to believe the story they want to hear.

I've been in the position described by the OP with external auditors praising areas which were non-compliant (in my case with TS 16949). It undermined the internal audit team (led by me) and allowed the management to bury their heads in the sand for a bit longer. All the management wanted was a certificate on the wall to allow them to mislead our customers into believing we were working to the TS standard when we clearly weren't. In most cases the external auditors found the major non-compliances (because I pointed them out) but chose to ignore them.

(Before you criticise my competence, note that I was a third party lead auditor for more than 20 years before moving back into industry. I was IRCA registered and a lead for QS-9000, TS 16949, ISO 14001, ISO 9001)

Re-educating management would be nice but is frequently impossible. Re-educating external auditors/CBs/ABs would be nice too but I see no evidence of it happening. Despite my background, I've directly experienced too many bad external auditors and heard so many horror stories that I can, sadly, no longer give credence to third party certification.

The responses in this thread seem to have ignored the incompetent external auditor and are blaming the organization's management for the problem. I really think it's time the third party registration industry accepted responsibility for the problems the rogues within their industry are creating and took some visible and effective action to clean up their act. That would leave no hiding place for the "badge on the wall" management attitude.
 
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