Auditor had no findings for last few years - Fed up with the whole thing...

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#71
We have just finished our surveillance audit. Our auditor found had no findings; no majors...no minors...for about the 5th or 6th straight audit...

All a competent auditor would have to do is walk around and see all the non-conformances..both majors and minors...

As a result, top management believe we have a great QMS and are meeting requirements...and yet we continue to produce bad product, ship bad product and do a very poor job on corrective actions; lack of control of non-conforming product is an everyday issue.

Document control is a disaster...

We don't even have our process defined clearly....

And yet...here we are with another great ISO audit....:mad:
Leaders,

Why wait for your auditors?

Value starts with the system itself. The system is meant to be helping its users to add value (and prevent loss).

The system is meant to be informing its users on what needs improvement continually.

You will have many drivers of improvement before audit. Customer feedback, employee suggestions, process monitoring, system performance reports to name just a few of them.

If the system does not do this then you have another reason to issue a CAR as such a system failure is also a nonconformity.

Who knows, top management may even stop waiting for the auditor to suggest system improvements? :sarcasm:

...and replace your registrar with one that sells the value of its auditors' well-crafted nonconformity statements! Do not hire a registrar that conceals system weaknesses by issuing OFIs instead.

John
 
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J

John Martinez

#72
...and replace your registrar with one that sells the value of its auditors' well-crafted nonconformity statements! Do not hire a registrar that conceals system weaknesses by issuing OFIs instead.

John
This is called "soft grading" and will result in a Certification Body being issued a non-conformance themselves from the Accreditation Body...and rightfully so.
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#73
This is called "soft grading" and will result in a Certification Body being issued a non-conformance themselves from the Accreditation Body...and rightfully so.
John,

Agreed, when the OFI blatantly replaces a nonconformity.

I am more concerned about OFIs concealing system weaknesses. This is where the auditor feels compelled to issue an OFI to add value instead of investigating why the system had not made the suggested improvement obvious to its users.

The need to improve the effectiveness of the system should come from the system (Voice of the System) not from its auditor.

Show me a sanitized OFI and I will demonstrate the hidden nonconformity.

Then perhaps we can answer the question: should an auditor be investigating why the system necessitates his or her issuance of an OFI?

John
 
J

John Martinez

#74
John,

Agreed, when the OFI blatantly replaces a nonconformity.

I am more concerned about OFIs concealing system weaknesses. This is where the auditor feels compelled to issue an OFI to add value instead of investigating why the system had not made the suggested improvement obvious to its users.

The need to improve the effectiveness of the system should come from the system (Voice of the System) not from its auditor.

Show me a sanitized OFI and I will demonstrate the hidden nonconformity.

Then perhaps we can answer the question: should an auditor be investigating why the system necessitates his or her issuance of an OFI?

John
I don't get your point. OFI's are best practices in industry that is offered to the organization to do with it what they wish. Doing so does not in and of itself ignore weakness in the system.

If a system is that week, then I'm not writing OFI's. From a third party perspective, you can't talk running shoes with an organization that is just starting to walk down the path of quality management systems. A third party auditors findings should be appropriate to the level of maturity of the system.

It is inappropriate to write an OFI to bring an organization up to par with a requirement of a Standard or Noteworthy that is just meeting the requirement of the Standard.

NC’s are reporting on weakness. Without a Requirement a Failure in That requirement, and Objective Evidence then one may have identified a risk (weakness) in the system that is in fact not a failure, yet.
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#75
I don't get your point. OFI's are best practices in industry that is offered to the organization to do with it what they wish. Doing so does not in and of itself ignore weakness in the system.

If a system is that week, then I'm not writing OFI's. From a third party perspective, you can't talk running shoes with an organization that is just starting to walk down the path of quality management systems. A third party auditors findings should be appropriate to the level of maturity of the system.

It is inappropriate to write an OFI to bring an organization up to par with a requirement of a Standard or Noteworthy that is just meeting the requirement of the Standard.

NC’s are reporting on weakness. Without a Requirement a Failure in That requirement, and Objective Evidence then one may have identified a risk (weakness) in the system that is in fact not a failure, yet.
John,

I did not know that registrar's auditors provided a bench-marking service on best practices under the cover of OFIs.

I'll wager best practices are not stated in the audit criteria, not to mention the registrars keeping their auditors up to speed on best practices.

Perhaps these "best practices" come from other auditees (if so a 7.5.4 nonconformity!)?

Surely the OFI comes from auditor's desire to improve the effectiveness of the system? This pretty close to the definition of an OFI.

An understandable and laudable desire were it not for the fact that it leaves the system weakness (not driven by best practice or the system not informing users of where improved effectiveness is required) unreported.

John
 
J

JaneB

#76
Despite my background, I've directly experienced too many bad external auditors and heard so many horror stories that I can, sadly, no longer give credence to third party certification.
I've had similar experiences. I still value certification, but I don't just take it at face value. I look at who the certifier is, what the standard of their auditor compentence is and what the external audit reports say/said over a period of time. (And you probably do too or would if you needed to.)

I really think it's time the third party registration industry accepted responsibility for the problems the rogues within their industry are creating and took some visible and effective action to clean up their act. That would leave no hiding place for the "badge on the wall" management attitude.
Excellent point and I do agree with you. :applause:
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#77
I really think it's time the third party registration industry accepted responsibility for the problems the rogues within their industry are creating and took some visible and effective action to clean up their act. That would leave no hiding place for the "badge on the wall" management attitude.
I agree that we need to restore and maintain CREDIBILITY to the third-party certification concept. As you know, there are people and organizations involved in this process that will not succumb to the chance of pocketing a fast dollar (or Euro), while compromising the integrity of their services and reputation. While others make a business model by being the path of least resistance to your certificate (as long as the bill is paid). Too many diverging interests plague this sector. Accountability only exists when self imposed. The accreditation process (not necessarily the accreditors) too porous, not filtering the bad players, just like the certification process fails to, in many instances.

I can attest that some sectors are re-thinking how conformity assessment services are performed. For example, the Aviation, Space & Defense sector, via the ICOP Scheme is continually enhancing the process to maintain integrity and credibility of the AS/EN 91X0 certificates issued. I am personally involved with that.

We have the Re-engineering of the Accreditation and Certification processes thread as well. Time will tell if the third-party sector will think about it's long term sustainability and act responsibly.

On the other hand, as long as this thing called BUSINESS exist, many stakeholders will devise ways to have confidence on certain aspects of a supplier's operation. That need won't vanish, in my opinion. If certification (as we know now) don't provide for that confidence, other ways will be devised.
 
C

ChrissieO

#78
oooooooops double post
Cx

Nol it wasn't now I have lost my post and haven't got the energy to type it all out again............well it is Saturday night.

Cx
 
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