Auditor says 5.6.3 should be discussed in Management Review

jimmymustang06

Involved In Discussions
#1
Being audited today, the auditor says 5.6.3 Resource Needs, should be discussed... Isn't that an output? No one noted any resource needs so there was no decision ... Who's right?

This is from the auditors NCR

Requirement: Clause 5.6.3 of the ISO/TS 16949:2009 Standard states that the output from the management review to include decisions and actions related to resource needs.

Objective evidence: The December 23, 2013 management review meeting minutes did not show that decisions and actions related to resource needs. Since other management review requirements had been met, this NC is classified as minor.
 
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Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#2
Re: Auditor says 5.6.3 should be discussed in Mgmt. Review

What kind of auditor?

There is no requirement in 5.6.2 for resource needs to be an input to management review, and 5.6.3 (Review Output) says that "The output from the management review shall include any decisions and actions related to...(c) Resource needs."

If there are/were no decisions and actions relative to resource needs, there is no requirement for resource needs to be addressed in the output of management review.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#4
Re: Auditor says 5.6.3 should be discussed in Mgmt. Review

You're welcome. If the auditor's NC statement is available, it would be good if you could post it.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#5
Re: Auditor says 5.6.3 should be discussed in Mgmt. Review

Being audited today, the auditor says 5.6.3 Resource Needs, should be discussed... Isn't that an output? No one noted any resource needs so there was no decision ... Who's right?
What kind of auditor?

There is no requirement in 5.6.2 for resource needs to be an input to management review, and 5.6.3 (Review Output) says that "The output from the management review shall include any decisions and actions related to...(c) Resource needs."

If there are/were no decisions and actions relative to resource needs, there is no requirement for resource needs to be addressed in the output of management review.
I echo Jim's reasoning here. If (for whatever reason) there is no discussion or action about ANY topic in any specific management review meeting, there is no reason to even put in a "null item" which says [in effect] "we did not discuss or dictate action on resource needs (employee changes, energy usage, pay scales, whatever.)"
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#6
Re: Auditor says 5.6.3 should be discussed in Mgmt. Review

Jimmy,

I love it when an auditor speaks ISO at me.

I just ask them to explain what they mean in terms I understand.

There being no requirement to understand what 5.6.3 means.

Too many auditees think not knowing ISOeze is a nonconformity.

But often I find that management reviews result in:









...nothing.

So, under communication I ask if the top managers reported back to the employees on what their management system does well, does less than well and what top management is doing about it.

They may also invoke preventive actions to improve the system, its processes and their products.

But this is all too rare.

John
 

jimmymustang06

Involved In Discussions
#7
Thanks all.. just had the closing meeting, the auditor is sticking with his minor finding that "resource needs" was not found on the management review notes... I don't have the "official" language yet, tried arguing it by saying it is an output and no conversation was held or decision made concerning needing more resources,.. I said "now if we had made a decision and I didn't have that decision in my notes, that would be a finding"..... he said we would have to appeal.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#8
Thanks all.. just had the closing meeting, the auditor is sticking with his minor finding that "resource needs" was not found on the management review notes... I don't have the "official" language yet, tried arguing it by saying it is an output and no conversation was held or decision made concerning needing more resources,.. I said "now if we had made a decision and I didn't have that decision in my notes, that would be a finding"..... he said we would have to appeal.
You may show him MY opinion - "he's in error!" (No appeal from that.)
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#9
Thanks all.. just had the closing meeting, the auditor is sticking with his minor finding that "resource needs" was not found on the management review notes... I don't have the "official" language yet, tried arguing it by saying it is an output and no conversation was held or decision made concerning needing more resources,.. I said "now if we had made a decision and I didn't have that decision in my notes, that would be a finding"..... he said we would have to appeal.
I would appeal, but I understand that you have to choose your battles. If you appeal, the worst thing that could happen is that the NC will stand and you'll have to answer it. You have to do that if you don't appeal, so there's really nothing to lose.
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#10
Thanks all.. just had the closing meeting, the auditor is sticking with his minor finding that "resource needs" was not found on the management review notes... I don't have the "official" language yet, tried arguing it by saying it is an output and no conversation was held or decision made concerning needing more resources,.. I said "now if we had made a decision and I didn't have that decision in my notes, that would be a finding"..... he said we would have to appeal.
Jimmy,

By any chance did the top managers suggest their management system was inadequate, unsuitable or ineffective?

That or other evidence may have suggested insufficient resources per 5.1e or 6.1. 5.6.3 is way too exotic for most corrective action teams.

John
 
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