Auditor says 5.6.3 should be discussed in Management Review

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Reg Morrison

#21
I agree 100% with the auditor. We must demonstrate that all topics in 5.6 are covered in the management review.
Jim, ISO 9001 is not a template to be used on how to run a business.

This is a clear tic-tac, non-value added nonconformity. If the external auditor really wants to know if the management review activity evaluated, or not, the resource issue, s/he can ASK top management about it. But, chances are, this auditor might be one of those who are scared of interacting with the organization's top management, as many CB auditors do. They have no problem "exercising their authority" with a QA/QC Manager, document control clerk, calibration supervisor, etc...but dread any interaction with the leadership of the organization being audited.

Verbal answers are also objective evidence admissible in an audit. Actually, when it comes to a quality system, a tremendous amount of evidence about the deployment and effectiveness exists, but it is NEVER captured in a record.

The nc should be appealed and questioned for value addition. The race to the bottom, in terms of auditor caliber, seems to be going well.
 
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scottj

#24
Management Review is one of the worst written aspects of ISO 9001 so there is no wonder there is confusion over what should be in the review records.
I agree that if there were no resource needs identified then the Management Review records would not "have to" record this, however it is fair for the auditor to raise a nonconformance that it has not determined the resource requirements under clause 6.1 or periodically reviewed the adequacy of the quality system (5.6.1). By definition resources are part of the quality system.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#25
Management Review is one of the worst written aspects of ISO 9001 so there is no wonder there is confusion over what should be in the review records.
I agree that if there were no resource needs identified then the Management Review records would not "have to" record this, however it is fair for the auditor to raise a nonconformance that it has not determined the resource requirements under clause 6.1...
First, the auditor wrote the NC against 5.6.2, not 6.1. There is no requirement to have a record of having determined resource needs. If resources are present and apparently adequate, someone must have determined something.

...or periodically reviewed the adequacy of the quality system (5.6.1). By definition resources are part of the quality system.
Management review is a review of the adequacy of the quality system. If part of any given management review deals with adequacy of resources, that consideration should be part of the MR output. It doesn't need to be part of the output if no consideration is given to it any any particular management review.
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#26
First of all, I'm in the camp that this is a junk NCR and NEEDS to be appealed.

That said, as a consultant, I encourage the use of a management review template that includes all three of the outputs as a reminder to discuss them IF THEY APPLY. A simple entry of "there were none identified" would have been appropriate. This is simply a good practice. I suspect that this would not have satisfied this auditor though.

Another lesson here, for auditors as well as auditees, is to ALWAYS refer to the standard before writing or accepting a nonconformance. This auditor's mission creep is blatant.
 
W

Wilderness Woody

#27
Being audited today, the auditor says 5.6.3 Resource Needs, should be discussed... Isn't that an output? No one noted any resource needs so there was no decision ... Who's right?
Unless there was clear evidence that the management review process is broken and a sham, this would appear to be bogus.

Of course management review documentation can be aided with "meeting minute prompts" to remind them that IF there are changes required in various resource categories, that they need to document those changes.

I would submit that in a normal state of continual improvement, regular allocations of resources will change over time... materials, staffing, training, facilities upgrades etc. However, I will grant that stable programs meeting the goals set by the customer and management may run along with no change for quite some time... a simple statement of "no changes in resources required at this time" would make the auditor move on to more pressing issues. :2cents:
 
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scottj

#28
In the context of TS 16949 I would raise a non conformance because
1. The continuous improvement requirements would have to require additional resources to be applied to the system, products and processes.
2. There must be some product development or model changes occurring over the next year.
3. TS 16949 defines a minor non-conformance as a single isolated case of non conformance with the standard (from memory).
ps. I live in Australia and we don't have a car industry or won't in the near future.
pps I would raise this as an observation under ISO 9001unless there was reasonable evidence that there are insufficient resources.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#29
In the context of TS 16949 I would raise a non conformance because
1. The continuous improvement requirements would have to require additional resources to be applied to the system, products and processes.
2. There must be some product development or model changes occurring over the next year.
3. TS 16949 defines a minor non-conformance as a single isolated case of non conformance with the standard (from memory).
ps. I live in Australia and we don't have a car industry or won't in the near future.
pps I would raise this as an observation under ISO 9001unless there was reasonable evidence that there are insufficient resources.
Just a minor point, if you will indulge me:
"Too many insecure quality folk latch on to the term "continuous improvement" versus the more technically achievable "continual improvement."
There's a subtle difference, but an important one, between "continuous" and "continual."
 

somashekar

Staff member
Super Moderator
#30
This is from the auditors NCR

Requirement: Clause 5.6.3 of the ISO/TS 16949:2009 Standard states that the output from the management review to include decisions and actions related to resource needs.

Objective evidence: The December 23, 2013 management review meeting minutes did not show that decisions and actions related to resource needs. Since other management review requirements had been met, this NC is classified as minor.



With all respects to the people who say " Show me the shall ", this is a shall requirement.
...The output from the management review shall include any decisions and action .....
Now, if it is a shall, it better be covered in the management review record.
If no decisions and actions., then record Nil.
Shall is met ... Any = Nil
Simple
 
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