Auditor's advice for improvement (Opportunities for Improvement) - Mandatory or not?

B

blue moon

#1
Dear Friend

during any audit some times auditors give some advise for improvement. is this advises is mandatory to do for survillance.

Could the auditor gives a NCR in Cluase 8.5.1 continual improvement during the survillance audit if he found that these notes and advises didn't implemeneted

============================
i.e.
i have example
where at the final audit for first year registeration the auditors make some note for improvement and he wrote it in the audit check list. we will go for the survillance audit next weak. it is mandatory to cover these notes.

or he can give us a NCR in Cluase 8.5.1 continual improvement
 
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Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#2
Re: Auditor's advice for improvement - Mandatory or not?

Good day,

Are you referring to internal audits, customer audits or registration audits?

In any case, advice for improvement is NOT required, and in the case of registration audits it amounts to consulting, which is outside the boundaries of correct protocol.

I used to give advice in my internal audit reports, but found it was not usually noticed or welcomed. So when I advise, I now do so via a discussion with the process owner. I do so in terms of what might help efficiency, what I have seen work well in other areas I audited, and what I have noticed registrars are looking for.
 
B

blue moon

#4
Re: Auditor's advice for improvement - Mandatory or not?

it was audit for registeration.

and the auditors didn't make a NCR reports for these notes as an opportunities for improvement


just wrote it inside the check list report.


thanks
 

Ajit Basrur

Staff member
Admin
#5
Re: Auditor's advice for improvement - Mandatory or not?

it was audit for registeration.

and the auditors didn't make a NCR reports for these notes as an opportunities for improvement

just wrote it inside the check list report.

thanks
Oppurtunities for Improvement (OFI) are not NCRs so they wont feature in the NCR report.

Am I understanding your question properly ?
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#6
Re: Auditor's advice for improvement (Opportunities for Improvement) - Mandatory or n

During the years, the word finding (in the context of a third-party audit) has erroneously been associated with non-conformities. Findings can be many things, some good and some bad.

A noteworthy achievement is a finding. An opportunity for improvement is a finding. An observation is a finding. A non-conformity is a finding. Different CB's use different terms to categorize findings during an audit.

For example, some CB's use the term observation to describe a situation where there is concern over an issue, but no evidence (yet) to substantiate objective evidence of a failure against a requirement. An auditor might issue an observation comment because s/he believes that the organization should evaluate the situation and take action, if and when appropriate. If an auditor issues an observation about a potential problematic situation, the organization decides to ignore it, and, later on, upon a subsequent audit, the auditor found that there is now objective evidence to support the failure of compliance against a requirement, s/he would issue a nonconformity report (NCR).

As for ignored "opportunities for improvement", they should not lead to an NCR by the external auditor. That is not supported by ISO 19011, ISO 17021, etc.
 
S

samsung

#7
Re: Auditor's advice for improvement (Opportunities for Improvement) - Mandatory or n

during any audit some times auditors give some advise for improvement. is this advises is mandatory to do for survillance.
Just do a review to see if the 'advice' adds value to your business & is workable, do it or turn a blind eye if it is really worthless.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#8
Re: Auditor's advice for improvement (Opportunities for Improvement) - Mandatory or n

Alluding to Sidney's comment:
I agree auditors, whether internal, second party [from customer], or third party [certification registrars], have not been consistent in the use of language or vocabulary to communicate what they have observed during the audit.

Strictly speaking, an auditor has one over-riding task:
to determine from his observation whether an organization is performing processes in a manner compliant with the auditee's written plans [which may include internal plans, external plans from customers, international Standards, or government regulations.]

Secondarily, the auditor may observe a practice or a process which seems vague or prone to error, even though no such error occurred during his "snapshot" visit. If the auditor comments at all, it might be in the form of a "heads up" to the auditee to keep an eye on the process to detect an error.

In recent years [the last 20 or so], some, not all, auditors have been treading a thin line between auditing and consulting by suggesting a "better way" to the auditee. In the case of internal and second party auditors, this is an expected and hoped for benefit of the audit and well within the parameters of such audits.

The sticking point comes when a third party auditor makes such suggestions because he may be violating trade secrets by passing on tips gleaned from other auditees. He is most likely violating the third party auditor guidelines on refraining from consulting or in any way acting as an advocate for the auditee. This is really a self-imposed rule by the third party registrars to maintain the appearance of impartiality for the audit itself. The fact of the matter is that CPA auditors have been crossing the line into consulting for as long as there have been "independent" certified public accountants. Rarely do positive consulting tips by CPAs raise eyebrows concerning impartiality. In my memory, the only scandals involving CPAs have been when they collude with clients to present a false picture of the economic health of the organization.

In my opinion,
ALL auditors (internal, second, and third party) should be encouraged to offer suggestions for improvement as long as they are careful not to disclose trade secrets of other organizations in those suggestions.

The responsibility of the auditee is to acknowledge such suggestions and it is also courteous to tell the auditor whether the suggestions have been incorporated or discarded. Detailed explanation beyond the courteous notification is not required. The notification regarding OFIs does not have to be part of the formal response an auditor may be expecting regarding actual N/C items. Certainly, no third party or second party auditor should be expecting a bonus or cash reward from the auditee if the suggestion is adopted and provides benefit to the auditee.
 
Last edited:

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#9
Re: Auditor's advice for improvement (Opportunities for Improvement) - Mandatory or n

The comments from Sidney and Wes are spot on.

I would like to stress the last part of the post from Wes. It is good for auditor relations to at least address any opportunities for improvement or observations. Even if the consideration ends up being nothing more than "we have looked at it and determined it would not be useful for us".
 
S

sudwel

#10
Re: Auditor's advice for improvement (Opportunities for Improvement) - Mandatory or n

I agree with the advise you have received here - OFI's are simply that, opportunities - and are submitted by an auditor, in the case of a 3rd party auditor - who isn't familiar with your exact business - so, you can roll those OFI's into your system (if you wish) - and then document whether or not you plan on "acting" on them. To echo others - they cannot issue an NC for not implementing an OFI.

As an aside - OFIs can be great Continual Improvement tools - roll them into your preventive action system - and then implement the ones you see value with - and "close" the others you don't see as offering added value or being feasible. I personally LOVE OFIs - and especially love it when staff raise them!!

my :2cents:

Darlene
 
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