Auditors - Some are Good and Some are Bad

Auditors good or bad

  • Auditors Good

    Votes: 1 11.1%
  • Auditors Bad

    Votes: 1 11.1%
  • Inbetween

    Votes: 7 77.8%

  • Total voters
    9

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#41
You make some very valid points.

Ok, so let me throw out a wild idea. Would it ever be feasible for evaluation of services?

Could we come to a point where auditor/auditee provide evaluation? You do your thing, and turn in the report to management. Then, you ask them to evaluate you on auditing style, knowledge, etc.

Here's the tricky part-you get to evaluate them as an auditee. Yes, they are a customer; I know.

Do you get to pick and choose who you get to audit? Is it entirely possible that if you as an auditor, poorly rate a client bad enough, that your employer would care and not accept them?
You know, there is another thread floating right now about whether we should measure the audit process. Your comment is the perfect argument for why we should, and that we could get a lot of insight from the exercise.

Auditors are supose to assess systems, and provide value. If the auditors are monitored, and reports and findings reviewed, it would be possible to determine who the good auditors are, and who the bad ones are.

Every registrar knows who their better and porrer ones are, even if they don't admit it. It is not perfect, but it will and does lead to improvements in the auditor base. really bad ones should be fixed or removed.

The problem arises that many 2nd party system would not see the value, but I do. It can have a tremendous outcome if done correctly. But it would not be easy.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

BradM

Staff member
Admin
#42
Helmut, thank you. You always have such good posts, and provide such good input to the Cove.

My father is the greatest men I know. :yes:However....:lol:

When he was building his house (watching his budget) said "I'll go ahead and tape/bed the sheetrock". In the one moment of wisdom I could offer him, "dad, I know money is tight. Save up and have a professional to do that." Well.. after doing it himself and having cracks in the Living Room, well.... I never pulled it out of him, but he regrets his decision.:tg:

Being involved with quality systems as long as I have, I personally feel that being an auditor (especially by yourself) is one of the most intellectually challenging jobs out there. I truly respect good auditors, and have such a huge respect for many of my Covers who are auditors.:yes:

I don't feel that good auditors should just have to grin and bear deplorable treatment on the part of auditees. Hence, why I truly appreciate Randy specifically stating his frustrations. There are a lot of people read these posts, and if we can get one person to treat auditors with a little more dignity, our time and effort will be worth it.

The quality community is ever evolving, and will not stay the same five years from now as it is today. Even if it is just my own Little Private Idaho, I would like to see a system where better human understanding occurs between auditor and auditee. IMHO, there's just so much adversarial dealings between the two.

Good auditors always want to do better, and auditees should learn to advance their own interaction with auditors. Not only to tap their knowledge and advance their quality system, but to acknowledge that auditors are human too. Good auditors are not doing their jobs to make a fortune, but because they believe in quality systems, and sincerely see systems improve.
 
W

Willem

#43
Re: Auditors good or bad

I agree and I think the topic is OK. We have many repeat questions over time. I do think it is inappropriate to be discussing whether it's appropriate (or whatever) as some have done within this thread. All this does is derail the thread.

Please stay on topic, everyone.

Thanks!
I agree totally. I'm a new member and wasn't involve on the previous disussions. Thank you for evryone that responded. I did'nt new that there were going to be so many responses. Thank you, it is interesting to see other views as well.
:bigwave:
 
W

Willem

#44
I don't feel that good auditors should just have to grin and bear deplorable treatment on the part of auditees. Hence, why I truly appreciate Randy specifically stating his frustrations. There are a lot of people read these posts, and if we can get one person to treat auditors with a little more dignity, our time and effort will be worth it.

Good auditors always want to do better, and auditees should learn to advance their own interaction with auditors. Not only to tap their knowledge and advance their quality system, but to acknowledge that auditors are human too. Good auditors are not doing their jobs to make a fortune, but because they believe in quality systems, and sincerely see systems improve.
Brad

I agree with you, I'm not an auditor but do have a lot of respect for them. I appreciate our 2nd party auditors, that are auditing us at the moment. They've been with us for the last 4 years. In the last 4 years we've build up a very nice relationship. The one thing i like about them is that they are still very much objective on the adits. After every audit I'm totally exausted but I know we had a thoruogh audit. You are correct I do learn a lot from them.

I don't agree that only 25% auditors are good. I want to think that at least 50% are good. I've started this thread originally just to see what others think of auditors.

I would like to see auditees and auditors work together to better QMS in total.;)
 
S

somerqc

#45
I am very lucky at the current time. Our auditor has been very good about reporting "recommendations" and "opportunities for improvement". We have used many of these to improve our systems. In fact, these items were the "ammo" to convince the owner to invest in an ERP system (process almost complete).

I will say that I believe that at least 80% of the auditors are effective at what they do. This doesn't mean there aren't bad ones that don't provide anything - however, I think that even the bad ones are trying to provide what THEY see as value.

In general, I believe that bad auditors are of 2 breeds - young and inexperienced where everything is a nonconformance and a very experienced auditor that is trying to ride into the sunset (or just wants out of the position).

:2cents:
 

Ajit Basrur

Staff member
Admin
#46
If its the Customer auditor that is BAD, will it be the same scenario as a BAD BOSS ?

I have seen in my long years of employment that auditors (and of course, most people) do not get along well due to their Chemistry problems. Even in my personal case, I am good to most people but there are certain individuals that I can not match despite many efforts from my side.

Thus if these type of people happen to be my suppliers ........ I may be a BAD auditor :mg:

I am attaching a link on "How to Deal with a Bad Boss" http://positivesharing.com/2007/01/how-to-deal-with-a-bad-boss/ - good reading :tg:
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#47
If its the Customer auditor that is BAD, will it be the same scenario as a BAD BOSS ?

I have seen in my long years of employment that auditors (and of course, most people) do not get along well due to their Chemistry problems. Even in my personal case, I am good to most people but there are certain individuals that I can not match despite many efforts from my side.

Thus if these type of people happen to be my suppliers ........ I may be a BAD auditor :mg:

I am attaching a link on "How to Deal with a Bad Boss" http://positivesharing.com/2007/01/how-to-deal-with-a-bad-boss/ - good reading :tg:
In the end, the title of this thread is accurate, and obvious--Auditors - Some are Good and Some are Bad. You can substitute any other profession for "Auditors" in that sentence, and it will still be true. While perceptions will differ with the evaluators--I might think an auditor who deliberately avoids problem areas is "good"--there are certainly skills involved that range beyond knowledge of standards and industrial practices. In my own mind, a "good" auditor, given those basic skills, still needs to:
  • approach each audit with the idea that he's there to help, not to find problems;
  • be able to deal with difficult and needlessly defensive auditees in such a way that they understand that he's there to help;
  • understand that the auditees have likely been through a few months (at least) of he11 and his conduct and actions are very important to them, even if the audit is just routine for him
  • know that practically everyone will be nervous and touchy, and the opening meeting is an important opportunity to put people at ease, and not an opportunity for creating a battle plan;
  • make sure that when there are findings, that violations of the standard are not as important as helping to promote good business practices, and to show examples of how the violations can be used to make things better;
  • make sure that findings are not immediately incontrovertible, and that they are always open to discussion about them, during or after the closing meeting.
"Good" auditing doesn't consist of sweeping through a building with a blowgun, randomly shooting poison darts at problems. It should begin with a very simple idea: "You have a quality system in place. Let's work together to see if we can improve it." In my mind the most important thing that Deming said was that managers are supposed to help people to do a better job, and that should be the auditor's credo.
 

harry

Super Moderator
#49
Jim, thanks for that beautiful summing-up. Debating about good/bad auditor is futile, just like debating about good/bad bosses or spouses for that matter.

What's important is the attitute with which one (auditor & auditee) approaches the problem.
 

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#50
Jim, thanks for that beautiful summing-up. Debating about good/bad auditor is futile, just like debating about good/bad bosses or spouses for that matter.
Well, I certainly hope that there wouldn't be much of a debate regarding spouses! :lol:

Now ex-spouses.... :notme:
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
J Bad ISO/TS Auditors - Is it a translation problem or am I nuts? General Auditing Discussions 19
R Auditors Point of View: What were your worst audits and bad experiences? General Auditing Discussions 7
M Do AS9100 Registrar Auditors have nonconformity quotas? General Auditing Discussions 18
B Internal Auditor Competency - Product Auditors Internal Auditing 9
M Question for Auditors - "Off the Record" Conversation? General Auditing Discussions 14
I What direction do you provide your internal auditors on OFIs? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 38
M Choosing Auditors - ISO 9001 / ISO 27001 (UK) IEC 27001 - Information Security Management Systems (ISMS) 2
E Choosing an ISO 9001 registrar with auditors familiar with our industry Registrars and Notified Bodies 10
ScottK Question for Auditors on 7.1.4 in the ISO9001:2015 revision ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6
S MDR (Medical Device Regulations 2017/745) training recommendation for Auditors EU Medical Device Regulations 1
S How can we demonstrate to MDSAP auditors that we have the requisite training ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 9
M CB and Internal auditors most common nonconformities against AS9100D AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 16
C Selecting potential internal auditors Internal Auditing 3
K Tips for dealing with third party auditors General Auditing Discussions 11
J ISO 9001 Competency - Forklift License and Internal Auditors ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 9
O How will you handle Clause 6.1 - Risks and Opportunities for AS9100 Rev. D Auditors? Risk Management Principles and Generic Guidelines 22
T Can a Lead Auditor Train other Auditors? Internal Auditing 4
A Professional Headhunters for External Auditors Career and Occupation Discussions 7
Sidney Vianna Auditors and CB's further investigating certified QMS' with ethical breaches? Registrars and Notified Bodies 8
W DCMA and AS9100C - Dedicating a week and 5 auditors to perform a AS9100C audit AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 7
Crimpshrine13 ISO/TS 16949 CBs & Auditors not following up on the schedules IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 43
H Any ISO 9001 consultants/auditors in Oahu, Hawaii ? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 5
S Subject Matter Expert Training for Auditors Internal Auditing 13
S Is it a Finding if all Internal Auditors are from the Quality Department? Internal Auditing 18
R Are ISO 9001 Lead Auditors in demand? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7
B ISO/TS16949 Internal Auditing - How many auditors? Internal Auditing 4
D Number of Internal Auditors Best Practice Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 18
A Training Supplier Auditors ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 5
T Would my AS 9110 certificate lapse due to non availability of auditors ? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 11
T Kids in the office from an auditors standpoint ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 13
T Qualification System of Internal Auditors is not Effective General Auditing Discussions 5
S Internal Auditors shall not audit their own work? Internal Auditing 21
R Female auditors earn 18% less than male auditors - IRCA Salary Survey 2014 Career and Occupation Discussions 0
J Wanting to Train our Internal Auditors Ourselves Internal Auditing 7
S Recertification Frequency for TS 16949 Lead Auditors General Auditing Discussions 4
Sidney Vianna As a profession we, auditors, are not doing enough - Simon Feary speech Registrars and Notified Bodies 36
Ninja Blind Gopher Auditors Comment - Who is responsible? Registrars and Notified Bodies 23
R Auditors Auditing Against ISO 9001:2015 Draft ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 33
R Auditors can NOT audit their own work audit finding Internal Auditing 17
Q Qualified Internal Auditors for AS9100 AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 37
B API approved Auditors in India Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 3
M How to measure effectiveness and efficiency of the established QMS as Auditors ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 14
R Should internal auditors be compulsorily certified as internal auditors ? Internal Auditing 11
W Is formal training required for Internal Auditors? Internal Auditing 7
K Auditors are trying to drive this business General Auditing Discussions 36
K Auditor Objects to List of Internal Auditors General Auditing Discussions 6
Mikishots AS91X0 Third Party Auditor Cycling and Changing Auditors AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 6
D What Factors to consider to determine the Number of Auditors Internal Auditing 3
E Who Audits the Auditors in a Company? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 12
P Which training system or LMS (Learning Management System) to train Auditors? Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 8

Similar threads

Top Bottom