Audits Before Assesment

[Laura M]

Originally posted by CarolX:

Laura - weekly review of inspection results, customer returns, and customer contacts. Monthly review of scrap and rework.

If you're calling the weekly/monthly management review as the required management review, then I hope you "periodically" look at additional information. This is a review of the data or results of your quality system. Most companies look at that data at similar frequencies, but the required management review should be a much more detailed agenda. I think Marc had a pdf file with a typcial management review agenda.

 

[Marc]

It's something like Mgmt_rev.xls in the pdf files directory -- Elsmar.com/pdf_files

 

[Jim Biz]

Who was it that said recently "just to put the cat in with the pedigons?"

"PERIODICALLY" is CLEAR? - in some facilities periodically could be defined as within a 5 year timeframe

 

[CarolX]

Marc -

quote

> Our field is much to competative to allow internal audits
> to be truly helpful to us.

I would like to hear your reasoning for this statement.

Absolutely ---
We are a small sheet metal house. In this area, this type of business is very competative, with cost being the most deciding factor by our customers. We can save them thousands of dollars by providing them quality product, on time at a reasonable cost, but if Fabricating Freddy down the street can do it for $.05 cheaper, we are out of luck ...... therefore - where am I being most effective in my organization -- auditing the processes via inspection, or auditing procedures????? And since we are small, I have the luxury of being able to track errors to specific personel....this allows me to immediately identify those people that need additional training.

Please do not misunderstand that I am not completely "anti-audit", but at this point, I feel, for our business, it is putting the cart before the horse.

I hope that clarifies things a bit.





[This message has been edited by CarolX (edited 08 September 2000).]

 

[barb butrym]

that theory certainly goes against my grain...but, hey, it takes all kinds to run the world....who is to say what works for you

 

[Marc]

You have not made a case for internal audits not being 'effective' or 'helpful' for you. You have simply said you can't afford them or consider them as not cost effective. Those are quite different issues.

If you follow these people so closely you should integrate this aspect of your company systems into internal audits. Sounds like you're pretty much doing the same thing. Yup - you'll have paper work to provide evidence.

The question becomes, if Fabricating Freddy down the street can do it for $.05 cheaper, why is this? Might even be that Fabricating Freddy 's owner takes less out of the business and thus can afford to keep prices lower than yours. Is Fabricating Freddy 's registered to ISO? Do your customers require you to be ISO? Maybe your sales force should find customers who do not require ISO if Fabricating Freddy 's do not.

I'm not hyping internal audits - my belief is a company should not need them. But then there is reality... ISO requires them. Period. You don't have a choice if you want to register. It is not a situation where you can exclude elements of compliance because for one reason or another you don't like the requirement. How you do this is up to you.

On the other hand you can buy an outside 'internal audit'. I do them for a few companies. One company of about 40 people takes me about 6 hours one day a year on-site.

If you are complaining about the 'cost' of internal audits, I assure you it will be the least of your fixed costs going into ISO 9001.

 

[Jim Triller]

When conducting an assessment auditors are evaluating the effectiveness of the fully implemented management system. In order to demonstrate a fully implemented internal audit process all elements must have been audited and records maintained as objective evidence.

 

[Al Dyer]

I agree with Jim,

Only when a system is fully implemented with documented effectiveness should the formal registration process begin. By doing this all employees are aware of the system and believe in its effectiveness.

When all personnel are on board and know what to expect, the registration process will not be overwelming and the usual stress levels will be greatly reduced.

ASD...

 

[CJacobsen]

Perhaps I missed something, but the FDIS of 9001:2000 states this:

Section 8.2.2 Internal Audit
"The organization shall conduct internal audits at planned intervals to determine whether the quality management system..."

Where does PERIODICALLY come in? It is only a statement by someone in a book. The full section of the FDIS, 8.2.2 seems pretty clear it is not a periodical function, but a well planned and defined function.

Oh, and to the actual thread: I would not go into a preassessment without a full internal audit first, don't know a registrar that would (I agree with a lot of what has been stated as to the why of this), and when contracted for a job, an internal audit is almost a requirement for me for certain scopes of work. Either I perform one, they perform one or one has been performed (and well documented) recently. How can you assess the current status - of readiness or compliance or effectiveness or level of current implementation if you don't have some sort of benchmark to start from?

Can't pull the cart unless the horse is harnessed properly.

 

[CarolX]

Thanks all for your input. Truly appreciated the discussions from different points of view.

Carol