Automotive Supplier PPAP Level Requirements

[ProfileSteve]

We are an ISO 9001 certified company & we are a Tier 3 supplier to automotive. We are in discussions with our Tier 2 customer in regards to the PPAP level requirements of our suppliers. Our customer SQA is saying that we have to require default level 3 PPAPs of our suppliers because we are ISO whether they are bulk raw material suppliers or anything which becomes part of the finished product we provide to Tier 2.

I do not believe this is the case. In our historical past we have only had our bulk material suppliers provide submission warrants & material/chemical analysis test results (Cert of Analysis) to verify the materials meets the specified material requirements.

We are a small company in regards to some of our huge material suppliers & asking them for a default level 3 PPAP (Design records, PFDs, FMEAS, MSA, Capa. Studies, etc.) is a huge expectation (seems unrealistic/impractical) for us to acquire.

Don't we as the customer to our suppliers have the ability to determine the extent of control we have of our suppliers without our customer dictate something which does not make sense?

I know the customer is always right but I'm not sure we'll ever get what they are asking for. Thanks for any advice / education I can receive.

 

[Golfman25]

These requirements have "changed" over the years. You are exactly right that you will get little value from a level 3 ppap of raw material suppliers. Most material is made to a material standard anyway. So the material cert. is really what is important. We went for years without a single PPAP from a raw material supplier (and 50 years before that) without an issue. Now all of a sudden, ding, non-conformance.

So here is your problem. You're trying to negotiate with your SQA. Your looking for something less than a Level 3. But your SQA is lazy and doesn't want to stick his neck out and make a decision. Easier for him to say, level 3 ppap. Now it's your problem. Good luck.

 

[ProfileSteve]

Thanks Golfman25. Right now we are proceeding & at least trying to get a control plan out of our bulk suppliers, & see if the customer SQA representative will accept this addition. Beyond this it may have to go to higher powers if we can't get what they are asking for.

 

[howste]

The question is, what did you agree to in your contract with your customer? If the customer PO said you would get level 3 PPAPs from suppliers, and your company accepted it, then you're stuck. If there is no such agreement, then it's all up for negotiation.

If they are TS 16949 certified, they are required to flow down any PPAP requirements that they get from their automotive customers. Generally that means that they must ask you for a level 3 PPAP. It generally doesn't mean that they have to ask you to get level 3 PPAPs from your suppliers. You may need to point out to them that they are asking for more than they contracted from you, and you can't comply with their request. They may not be happy about it, but legally they have no right to require it.

 

[ProfileSteve]

Thank you Howste for this excellent response.

There is no verbage in our contract like that.
They are TS 16949 certified but they never asked for level 3 PPAPs from our bulk material suppliers until after launch & long after initial PPAP submission by us to them that have already been submitted & previously approved by them.

The requirement all of a sudden floated down from their Tier 1 customer by the Tier 1 SQE.

I am trying to negotiate but the Tier 2 SQE keeps insisting it's a ISO requirement that we acquire level 3 PPAPs from all of our suppliers. Negotiating is buying me time to exctract some of this info from our suppliers.

 

[howste]

...the Tier 2 SQE keeps insisting it's a ISO requirement that we acquire level 3 PPAPs from all of our suppliers...

Ask him/her to show you where the ISO 9001 requirement is. Hint: it doesn't exist.

 

[Golfman25]

Thank you Howste for this excellent response.

There is no verbage in our contract like that.
They are TS 16949 certified but they never asked for level 3 PPAPs from our bulk material suppliers until after launch & long after initial PPAP submission by us to them that have already been submitted & previously approved by them.

The requirement all of a sudden floated down from their Tier 1 customer by the Tier 1 SQE.

I am trying to negotiate but the Tier 2 SQE keeps insisting it's a ISO requirement that we acquire level 3 PPAPs from all of our suppliers. Negotiating is buying me time to exctract some of this info from our suppliers.

What if your supplier doesn't want to comply? For large material suppliers, they may care less. Now what are you supposed to do? And what if you can't readily get the material somewhere else, so changing suppliers is out of the question? Ask him and see what he says.

Here's what's probably happening. $hit rolls down hill. His customer is requesting it, so they are requesting it. They probably don't want to "negotiate" with the top customer. I have a customer like that -- they are afraid to "challenge" their customer. So we have to jump thru a lot of unnecessary hoops.

 

[GeorgPI]

Hello,
my customers sends me a Quality Management Agreement.
In there, they mumble something about PPAP, but nothing more specific.
No TS16949 or some PPAP level is mentioned, just that we should follow PPAP.
Now, what does it actually mean?
Do they expect us to get some certifications for this?
Or might it be something more informal?

Would be great to get some suggestions.
Best regards
Georg

 

[Jim Wynne]

Hello,
my customers sends me a Quality Management Agreement.
In there, they mumble something about PPAP, but nothing more specific.
No TS16949 or some PPAP level is mentioned, just that we should follow PPAP.
Now, what does it actually mean?
Do they expect us to get some certifications for this?
Or might it be something more informal?

Would be great to get some suggestions.
Best regards
Georg

Welcome to the Cove . As in every case where customer requirements aren't clear, the only definitive answer will come from the customer. You can get only guesses here.

 

[GeorgPI]

Hello Jim,
that was a simple answer,
but I guess, you are right!
Really hate to deal with this arrogant guys ...
But I will have to follow your advice ...