Average number of Nonconformances during a surveillance assessment

[Sidney Vianna]

I work for a company with 125 emplyees and since our cerification audit with 7 minors, we haven't received any nonconformances resulting from the surveillance audits.

Did you have to provide the auditor with a Quality Manual in Braille?

Next month is our last surveillance audit before recert in February.

That is odd to have a surveillance audit so close to a re-certification audit. Just 2 months apart.

 

[AndyN]

Sidney;
Maybe the ANAB advisory about grading NC's has flowed down and now no-one is writing them in case their grading isn't correct...............

Andy

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Obviously, the number of NC's does not tell the whole story. But there is anecdotal evidence that contracted auditors (vs. full time employee auditors) write fewer NC's, compared to the fully employed counterparts. The primary reason is the fact that auditors realize that, if they upset the paying customers, they might not be welcomed back. Which means loss of revenue for the contracted auditors. Back in the early and mid 90's, some US based CB's used to boast that they only employed full time auditors. There is a reason for that. Due to the competitive pressure of the certification market, I believe that most large CB's have been forced to adequate their workforce.
Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that all contracted auditors are bad and all full time auditors are good. Not at all. I personally know several contract auditors that are extremely good at what they do. But being black listed from a client has obvious different consequence$ for the two categories. After all, contrary to what many believe, the pocket is the most sensitive part of the human anatomy.

 

[GStough]

I voted "over 8" because for the last 2-3 years (heck, maybe longer than that - I've only been here just less than 2 yrs), we've had double-digit minor NCs and several majors. Not an ideal situation by any stretch of the imagination, I know. However, we have worked very hard to improve the QMS and we remain hopeful that this year's audit will be the best we've had in several years.

BTW, we always have the same lead auditor - not necessarily a good thing all the time....

 

[Hershal]

Sidney,

While I agree about the psychological aspects, may I respectfully suggest that there are two - BASIC - kinds of auditors.....the ones who believe that you have to write correctives actions to prove the job was done (just a side, we refuse to use those ones), and the ones who - for whatever reason - may write fewer.....maybe because there are more effective ways to accomplish the same end, maybe the financial aspect.....maybe other reasons.....

For us, we see mature QMS as - generally - having fewer issues, so we can concentrate on "how can we - together - move to the next level?".....mayb not popular, but then, I do work for an AB.....

Just my thoughts.....

Hershal

 

[Sidney Vianna]

the ones who believe that you have to write correctives actions to prove the job was done

This, I believe, has to do with their professional maturity. Most "green" auditors feel that they have to write up NC's to show that they can find problems. It normally leads to trivial, nit-picky, non value added NCs.

maybe because there are more effective ways to accomplish the same end,

There are? Gentleman's pacts? Hands shaking? The stern warning: "this better be fixed next time I come back...or else" type of agreement? Are these really better? Maybe you could elaborate on the "better ways to close management system gaps". I would like to hear your experience and suggestions.

There are many types of auditors, in my estimation. However, the ones that do not call it as it is, softgrading or overlooking valid NCs are damaging the concept of 3rd party assessments.

For us, we see mature QMS as - generally - having fewer issues, so we can concentrate on "how can we - together - move to the next level?".

No dispute on that.

 

[Hershal]

To elaborate.....

I agree that there are always a few folks where the "big stick" is the only way to do things.....but there are also folks who truly want to move to the next level.....those are the folks where a phrasing that is less severe may accomplish the same end.....

Hope that helps clarify things a bit.....

Hershal

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Hope that helps clarify things a bit.....

It doesn't. For me at least. Are you saying (for example) that it would be better to call an NC as an opportunity for improvement? The phrasing is less harsh, and more palatable. But the implications are vastly different in the world of accredited management system certification. I am confused.

 

[SteelMaiden]

as far as i'm concerned, let's call a rose, a rose.
You don't have to be all namby pamby with me. If I have a nonconforming area, write it up, I'll fix it. If you see something where there is definitely room for improvement, let me know. I know you cannot tell me how to do something, but face it, I'm in one spot (pretty much) and may not know what others are doing....I may be in such a rut that I don't even know there is a better way out there, I may think that everyone does it the way I do.

I have my big girl underwear on, and I'll get over it.

 

[Cari Spears]

as far as i'm concerned, let's call a rose, a rose. ... I have my big girl underwear on, and I'll get over it.

LMAO - I wish I had said that!