Back to the moon... In 2018

J
#21
bmccabe said:
Well put. You’re correct, the economic benefit works exactly as you say. But let me ask this rhetorical question: If we spend the money on development of alternative fuels, does this upset the economic mechanism and benefit you described? No, it works the same – Except at the end of this path……[wag – idealistic speculation] …….. We liberate the world? :magic: Am I the only one who sees this? Trust me; there are few problems in the world today that $2E9 won’t fix. If we spent this money on alternate energy: We’d have alternate energy.

It’s as I said, a moon shot now is an unconscionable waist of resource; when there are obvious, attainable, tangible, realistic, beneficial, globally minded, sorely needed places that require our attention. And all of them bring the R&D jobs and economic ripple that some mistakenly perceive has been sacrificed. When will we put the toys down and shoe the horse? When will we grow up?
HHMMM....
I'm showing my age here, but I seem to recall very similar arguements going on in the '60's while we were striving to beat the USSR to the moon.

Your arguement for alternative fuel is a good one, and eventually will come to pass. But only when we are forced into it. (see thread about gas prices) As far as the other ills of the world most will be with us forever simply because they ar unsolvable. They deal with human nature. I won't get into all of this because we don't want to go political.

Let me pose this to you. Current science accepts that, the earth has been hit by asteriod/meteor/objects large enough to cause mass global change and extinctions. Should we try to locate and track these to prevent such a future catastrophe? And if so don't we need a viable space program to do this? I don't know if this current proposal is the best one, but I support NASA in what they are trying to do.
As far as commercializatioin of space goes, I say GO FOR IT. We are a capitalist country. Lets let the adventuresome rich help pay for it. Remember too that Automobiles were once the expensive playthings of the wealthy.

James
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
J

JerryStem

#22
Randy said:
Already been invented. Water is broken down into H & O and then both are burned in an internal combustion engine to generate energy and producing water vapor for exhaust.
Then refine & mass-produce it! Spend the $$$ that would take us to the moon (again) & get us out of this oil. 30% comes from the Gulf, the other 70% I'm not sure. I'll bet a major chunk from the arab countries, which while not getting too political, are home to many bad people intent on blowing us up.

Get us on a cheap reliable source of fuel, one that isn't depleting rapidly already, then we can talk about fun things like space travel.

Jerry :agree1:
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#23
The water fuel cell is a unique electrolysis device invented by Stanley Meyer (deceased March 21, 1998) which is claimed to break water into hydrogen and oxygen gas using less energy than the energy present in the bond itself. The water fuel cell was claimed to produce several times more energy than it consumed (for instance, by connecting it to a hydrogen-burning engine). Since this violates the current theories of conservation of energy, it has never been demonstrated to work or reproduced, and the inventor of the device was successfully sued for fraud, it is under much skepticism and is widely assumed to be a hoax.

Stanley Meyer was granted patents in the United States and abroad starting in 1989. The fuel cell consists of stainless steel plates arranged as a "capacitor", with pure water acting as the dielectric. A rising staircase of direct current pulses is sent through the plates at roughly 42 kHz, which is claimed to cause the water molecules to intensely break apart with less energy than is required by standard electrolysis.


The circuit used to drive the electrolysis device, as described in Meyer's patents. It is claimed that this circuit induces electrolysis with less energy than required by modern laws of physics.Meyer has demonstrated his fuel cell device before Professor Michael Laughton, Dean of Engineering at Mary College, London, Admiral Sir Anthony Griffin, a former controller of the British Navy, and Dr Keith Hindley, a UK research chemist. According to the witnesses, the most startling aspect of the Meyer cell was that it remained cold, even after hours of gas production as his system appeared to operate on mere milliamperes, rather than the amperes that conventional electrolysis would require. The witnesses also stated:

After hours of discussion between ourselves, we concluded that Stan Meyer did appear to have discovered an entirely new method for splitting water which showed few of the characteristics of classical electrolysis. Confirmation that his devices actually do work come from his collection of granted US patents on various parts of the WFC system. Since they were granted under Section 101 by the US Patent Office, the hardware involved in the patents has been examined experimentally by US Patent Office experts and their seconded experts and all the claims have been established.

(Copied from Wikipedia)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fuel_cell
 
B

bmccabe - 2006

#24
NEO’s? what are the odds? Once in 65Myears? Now what are the odds of economic collapse from an interruption (however brief) in crude oil supply? Or the odds of 600M combustion engines burning fossil fuel will poison our air and water? WADR - What if we fund the NEO thing proportional to its risk?

I don’t know – If you had a comprehensive DB that cataloged all the NEO’s – What then? It’s not like we can call down to Scottie for more power! I’d rather be blindsided than hear a 10 year countdown to Armageddon. But, maybe we should start looking around for these things now – Some day, if we survive the more immediate threats, we just may have an Enterprise with reverse tractor beams n-stuff.

Commercialization of space ? – TOO COOL!!! But, what’s that got to do with NASA and tax dollars? If EXXON, Bill Gates or Grandma Mosses want to venture their capitol or personal assets – Fortune favors the bold. ….IMHO got’ta nix the tax funding.

Say, my learned colleagues: I’ve been wondering for some time. How many gallons of gas are produced from a barrel of oil? I read some things on line today that ranged this from 19 to 28 / 42 . I’m finding this hard to believe. I’d expect more gas, a lot more. Yes, I know we do other things with oil other than gas, and refining creates useful by-products. I would have expected a barrel of oil makes a tanker full of gas – What I read,,,, divide overflow.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#25
The amount of gas produced is dependant upon the technology used. I can't be specific because of confidentiality issues, but a couple of places I go are able to increase gasoline yield into the low/mid-double digit percentage with new/revised cracking/distillation processes. This is prety much common knowledge in the industry. Check the American Petroleum Institute site for better info... www.api.org

There is always going to be heavier bottom materials like asphault and "stuff" that won't break down easy.
 
Last edited:
B

bmccabe - 2006

#26
bmccabe said:
.......... It’s not like we can call down to Scottie for more power! ..........

……….Which is, of course, my (note to moderator: completely A-Political) point in the first place.

We don’t have clean, inexhaustible, unlimited, free energy; and desperately need it. We sure don’t need another bagful of un-remarkable rocks – [ Unless you can plant them; grow a bean stalk to a castle in the clouds; rescue a magic, energy-egg-lay’n, chicken; and live happily ever after. :bonk: ]

We, as a nation, as enlightened people, had better start thinking about something other than the next quarterly report to the share holders – Or somebody very soon is going to get the really s*@$$y job of writing an epitaph for humanity. Don’t worry all. If I get the duty I can do it in two words. “Why me!”


PS thank’s Randy.
 
J
#27
The thread is about space isn't it??

bmccabe said:
NEO’s? what are the odds? Once in 65Myears? Now what are the odds of economic collapse from an interruption (however brief) in crude oil supply? Or the odds of 600M combustion engines burning fossil fuel will poison our air and water? WADR - What if we fund the NEO thing proportional to its risk?

I don’t know – If you had a comprehensive DB that cataloged all the NEO’s – What then? It’s not like we can call down to Scottie for more power! I’d rather be blindsided than hear a 10 year countdown to Armageddon. But, maybe we should start looking around for these things now – Some day, if we survive the more immediate threats, we just may have an Enterprise with reverse tractor beams n-stuff.

Commercialization of space ? – TOO COOL!!! But, what’s that got to do with NASA and tax dollars? If EXXON, Bill Gates or Grandma Mosses want to venture their capitol or personal assets – Fortune favors the bold. ….IMHO got’ta nix the tax funding.

Say, my learned colleagues: I’ve been wondering for some time. How many gallons of gas are produced from a barrel of oil? I read some things on line today that ranged this from 19 to 28 / 42 . I’m finding this hard to believe. I’d expect more gas, a lot more. Yes, I know we do other things with oil other than gas, and refining creates useful by-products. I would have expected a barrel of oil makes a tanker full of gas – What I read,,,, divide overflow.
I will gladly concede the odds against impactin our lifetimes, and the importance of dealing with the problems here on earth, but I thought this thread was about space and going back to the moon. So my comments about NEO's are related to that aspect.
There is another thread here that is dealing with energy issues("What are you paying....") discussions about alternative fuels are being discussed there.

What I am saying about NEO's relates to space in the same way that what others are relating the energy issue to human survival. So much space funding is trying to look deep deep deep into space and find out the origions of the universe. While this is very interesting, and makes good publishing for scientists, It doesn't help us solve any of the riddles in our own solar back yard. NEO's are real and have impacted before. IF we fund space (and I think we should) It should be for research more practical than "are there planest orbiting a star 36 billion light years away". There is plenty to explore right close to home and we should get on with it.

As for the problems on earth, they've been with us, and they'll be with us. It doen't matter how much money you throw at the problem. In the 60's We had the Space program AND the "Great Society" (LBJ's social agenda) You can look around and see that the poor are still with us. It's the bell curve folks, someone is always going to be at the low end.

Yes we will have some sort of energy meltdown in the future. Yes humanity will suffer. But these things will not result in the extinction of the species. Humanity will trudge on, and hopefully build something better.

Unless we get smacked by a NEO. :bonk: :jawdrop:

Just sign me off as an old, cynical, disallusioned, Flower Child.

Off my soapbox now.

James :beerdive: :agree1:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
B

bmccabe - 2006

#28
:topic: Not going to happen. The oil companies have a death grip on the world. They have an exclusive, captive market, protected from fair trade and competition by the might of the US armed forces.

I read Arabian oil exports are at an all time low, but the percentage of Arabian oil in our gas has increase….. Hmmmm!

:agree1: We agree on this: No funding for a moon shot – Spend the money on energy.

If we commit those resources, the mission will never reach the launch pad. We will seal our fate, and the whole world will be plunged in chaos.





Fund energy research,,,,, While we still have a choice :blowup:
 
J

JerryStem

#29
:topic:

Any reason this page is rendered about 3x my screen size? I have to keep scrolling left/right WAY too much... (FF 1.06)

Jerry :confused:
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#30
JerryStem said:
:topic:

Any reason this page is rendered about 3x my screen size? I have to keep scrolling left/right WAY too much... (FF 1.06)

Jerry :confused:
Sometimes a post is 'corrupted' using the WYSIWYG editor (usually a problem with quote brackets). Long story. Doesn't happen often. If you see anything like this anywhere else, let me know and I'll fix it.
 
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