Bad ISO/TS Auditors - Is it a translation problem or am I nuts?

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
I am a little surprised that no one asked Jan if they are tier 1 to one of the automotive companies. If they "are" tier 1 it is my understanding they would have to notify the certifying body. If they are not tier 1 it is my understanding that they need to meet the customers requirements.

We were placed on CS2 containment by our customer who was tier 1 to G.M. At my next surveliance audit I showed the auditor all of my CS2 documentation and they looked into it and concluded that since we were not tier 1 we had not needed to notify them upon being placed on CS2 containment.

Funny thing was 5 weeks after contracting Product Action and having them do a 100% visual inspection of my parts, a part was found at my customer that was missing 2 weld nuts. When I went to the customer and showed them that Product Action had been the ones who had performed the inspection they didn't care. They told me I had to re-inspect 100% of the product they had at their facility.

Worked out pretty nice for me because I got paid a bunch of overtime to inspect parts that had been inspected the previous week by my own people. This was because I had fired product action the week before for sending me a guy who was more interested in the girl who worked in shipping then he was in the parts he was inspecting.

I back charged product action for the time I spent re-inspecting parts and in the end all was well. My customer downgraded me to CS1 and we have been doing 100% visual inspection ever since. Now I get to come in on Saturday (at time and a half) and do weld destruct testing. The irony of it all is that the only one who made out was me.

Moral of the story is that it is best to calm down and take a cool approach to your situation. If you are not tier 1 your auditor/consultant may just be right.

As far as quiting a job over this: don't cut off your nose to spite your face.


The irony of the whole situation is if weld nuts were missing, it probably mistake-proofed itself out of the assembly process. The whole 3rd party sorting process has become a silly, very expensive, unnecessary and almost worthless activity in probably at least 90 - 95% of the cases. Especially if there were 1 or 2 items found.
 
Q

QAMMAN

Helmut, you hit the nail on the head.
I have shipped over 120,000 of these parts to my customer, with just one part that was missing 2 of the 4 weld nuts. I have the 4 weld nuts attached at an outside source who is ISO certified.

Does that meen he has control over his processes?
He does now, becuase I forced him to go out and buy a new arbor press with a new pressure gauge so that he could more accurately test parts at a predermined frequincy and record the results.

Does that meen he does this every day? I can't be sure can I? But I do know that he is paying much more attention to the process, and since I am also doing weld destruct testing at my facility I will catch any suspect product prior to it leaving our house.

This goes back to Jans question about idiot auditors and certifying bodies. My source for the weldnut on this part should not have an ISO cert. I go to his facility and they perform no incoming inspection. They have no control plans over their processes. I had to create all of the records and control plans they needed for my job. Still though he is the best source I have found for the job. Should I "cut off my nose to spite my face" or help him attain the controls he needs to achieve conforming parts?
 
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Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
Helmut, you hit the nail on the head.
I have shipped over 120,000 of these parts to my customer, with just one part that was missing 2 of the 4 weld nuts. I have the 4 weld nuts attached at an outside source who is ISO certified.

Does that meen he has control over his processes?
He does now, becuase I forced him to go out and buy a new arbor press with a new pressure gauge so that he could more accurately test parts at a predermined frequincy and record the results.

Does that meen he does this every day? I can't be sure can I? But I do know that he is paying much more attention to the process, and since I am also doing weld destruct testing at my facility I will catch any suspect product prior to it leaving our house.

This goes back to Jans question about idiot auditors and certifying bodies. My source for the weldnut on this part should not have an ISO cert. I go to his facility and they perform no incoming inspection. They have no control plans over their processes. I had to create all of the records and control plans they needed for my job. Still though he is the best source I have found for the job. Should I "cut off my nose to spite my face" or help him attain the controls he needs to achieve conforming parts?


Good improvement. Some companies that do this kind of work use sensors or cameras to 100% verify that the weld nut are welded in place. It does not guarantee the weld was good, but that would have to be controlled with checks on current and amperage.
 

Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
Helmut, you hit the nail on the head.
I have shipped over 120,000 of these parts to my customer, with just one part that was missing 2 of the 4 weld nuts. I have the 4 weld nuts attached at an outside source who is ISO certified.

Does that meen he has control over his processes?
He does now, becuase I forced him to go out and buy a new arbor press with a new pressure gauge so that he could more accurately test parts at a predermined frequincy and record the results.

Does that meen he does this every day? I can't be sure can I? But I do know that he is paying much more attention to the process, and since I am also doing weld destruct testing at my facility I will catch any suspect product prior to it leaving our house.

This goes back to Jans question about idiot auditors and certifying bodies. My source for the weldnut on this part should not have an ISO cert. I go to his facility and they perform no incoming inspection. They have no control plans over their processes. I had to create all of the records and control plans they needed for my job. Still though he is the best source I have found for the job. Should I "cut off my nose to spite my face" or help him attain the controls he needs to achieve conforming parts?
Registered to a Standard or not, if a supplier is doing custom work for you, it only makes sense that he perform the task and keep records in a way that gives you confidence you don't have to inspect and rework each piece.

Automotive supply chains demand a PPAP which means they are (should be) looking at the steps in a supplier's Control Plan to gain that confidence. Recent events with suppliers in China unilaterally changing Control Plans to introduce new, cheaper, more toxic materials which endanger end users from pets to children are proof there has been a breakdown in the process of whatever form of PPAP the OEMs have been depending upon.

Frankly, I believe some, if not most, of that breakdown is due to OEMs who are either greedy or lazy or both in forcing every last penny of profit from the supplier to fatten their own bottom line. Why do the OEMs do this? Because it is easier to do that than seek ways to legitimately reduce the processing cost throughout the supply chain with improved design and manufacturing methods. If the OEMs squeeze the supplier too tightly, there is no money for R&D and the supplier resorts to dubious shortcuts just to keep his head above water.

Long ago, Walt Kelly famously wrote in his Pogo comic strip, [FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]"We Have Met The Enemy and He Is Us" (http://www.igopogo.com/we_have_met.htm)
The bottom line:
WE (the retail public) are ultimately the enemy who drives this whole crazy inverted and perverted system of fraud and chicanery when we refuse to look beyond acquisition price when we purchase goods and services. We preach a quality ethic in our professional lives and bemoan the fact our bosses won't listen to us and continue to buy from the cheapest supplier, yet we don't extend ourselves to carry the same message to our brethren in the retail marketplace who really drive the whole engine of "cheaper, regardless of quality."

For years, Quality wonks have whined, "There's never enough money to do it right in the first place, but there always seems to be enough for recalls and repairs or replacements when the shoddy work finally is detected by failing!"

What are WE doing to change that?
[/FONT]
I, for one, look in the mirror each morning and ask, "What can I do today to make a difference?"
 

Caster

An Early Cover
Trusted Information Resource
[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica] We preach a quality ethic in our professional lives and bemoan the fact our bosses won't listen to us and continue to buy from the cheapest supplier, yet we don't extend ourselves to carry the same message to our brethren in the retail marketplace who really drive the whole engine of "cheaper, regardless of quality." [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]What are WE doing to change that?[/FONT]

"

I will starve to death and go naked before I ever set foot in a Wal Mart or give them penny one.

I got 5 quotes for my new roof and I went with the company who have the best reputation in town, and yes they were the most expensive. And oh what a great job they did!

I have the best tires I could find on my minivan because I love my wife and kids (and I respect the other drivers on the road).

We try to buy locally

I now ride my bicycle to work, and instead of buying a new mountain bke I'm using my pefectly fine 30 year old bike from college.

I agree with a lot Wes says, but I think some blame needs to go squarely at the feet of executives on this, thay made the call globalize to drive up their stock options.

We can't fight them, because they have destroyed our choices. Wal Mart killed most of the local merchants here.

It is unfair to ask a poor working mom to pay more. I am lucky to be middle class, I have the ability to put my money where my mouth is, the poor don't. Rant ends.
 
J

Jan C

In the case of the CS2, we are Tier 2, BUT (always a but), we were required by our customer (the Tier 1, on CS2 per GM) to notify our CB, so that makes it a requirement, correct? We were also required by our customer to notify all of our OE customers who purchase like products of the issues. :confused:
 

Stijloor

Leader
Super Moderator
In the case of the CS2, we are Tier 2, BUT (always a but), we were required by our customer (the Tier 1, on CS2 per GM) to notify our CB, so that makes it a requirement, correct? We were also required by our customer to notify all of our OE customers who purchase like products of the issues. :confused:

Hello Jan,

Yes. A customer imposed requirement is an auditable requirement and you must comply.

Stijloor.
 
Q

QAMMAN

In the case of the CS2, we are Tier 2, BUT (always a but), we were required by our customer (the Tier 1, on CS2 per GM) to notify our CB, so that makes it a requirement, correct? We were also required by our customer to notify all of our OE customers who purchase like products of the issues. :confused:


Hi Jan,

The evidence you are looking for to state your case can be found in the IAOB Clarification of the Impact of Customer Special Status Conditions. I have attached a copy to this posting.

regards,

Rich G.
 

Attachments

  • IAOB_Clarification of_the_Impact_ of_Customer_Special_Status_Conditions_Released_October_27_2004.pdf
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