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Bulk material vendor (supplier) change - PPAP resubmission? SAE J403 grade 1020 steel

M

Matts

#1
Typically does a vendor (supplier) change dictate a re-submission on our behalf for the part/component?
The bulk material in this case is SAE J403 grade 1020 steel. The new vendor will produce the steel to meet the same material requirements as the original vendor (in this case chemical requirements).
When we notified our customer, they initially stated we could not change vendors, then stated if we wanted to, we would need to submit to them a level 4 PPAP for the drive shaft component; however they have not indicated what customer difined requirements would be requested above and beyond the level 3 PPAP.
We counter offered a level 2 including a bulk material test report, and a final part test report (including mechanical properties which is part of normal supply). We explained that our process was not changing and that the bulk material for all intense purposes was not changing. By providing the test report data it could be easily determined that the product supplied using the new steel vendor met their requirements.
The customer has rejected this offer and re-stated a level 4 PPAP with customer requirements TBD.
I realize that we are obligated to supply the customer with whatever PPAP requests they have, but I wonder if any one here has an opinion/suggestion how we may better make our case to supply only a level 2 PPAP?
 
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Miner

Forum Moderator
Staff member
Admin
#2
You are getting hung up on the different levels, apparently thinking that this will lessen the work. PPAP requires that you perform ALL of the requirements REGARDLESS of LEVEL and keep them on file. The level only indicates what portion of that actually gets sent to the customer. The workload is the same regardless of the level, so you will not accomplish anything by arguing with the customer (other than irritating them).
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#3
Miner said:
You are getting hung up on the different levels, apparently thinking that this will lessen the work. PPAP requires that you perform ALL of the requirements REGARDLESS of LEVEL and keep them on file. The level only indicates what portion of that actually gets sent to the customer. The workload is the same regardless of the level, so you will not accomplish anything by arguing with the customer (other than irritating them).
:agree1:
This is the main message that we have been trying to explain all the time.
The requirement of PPAP is to perform all of the actions, the level only explains where the documents are filed
 
M

Matts

#4
Thanks guys. There is a perception here that submission level = amount of work required (elements that need updating). I often hear "same as except...", but you're saying that isn't acceptable and I agree. I suppose a long time ago it was determined to pull the "same as except..." and because we didn't get caught, it has become the normal course of PPAP updating:mg:
Thanks again - I will discuss further with the persons responsible for PPAP submissions here.
 

Marc

Fully vaccinated are you?
Staff member
Admin
#5
I'll chime in here in saying that many times a reduced PPAP (as in testing done, etc.) is sometimes acceptable. It depends upon what is changed and the effect it will have on a product.

For example, take a change in paint supplier - Often the only testing that needs to be done is that related to the paint (such as salt spray or other 'durability' testing). So, in this case the only 'work' to be done is durability testing of the paint. In the case I am relating here, I got approval from the customer and all they wanted was results of the new testing.

The first thing I used to do was contact the customer and explain what I wanted to do, what my plan was and get their approval. Most of the time I have been successful in getting performance of a 'subset' of the original complete PPAP approved rather than to go through what is essentially the entire PPAP process. ***Be ready to discuss known and predicted effects of the change on the product***

As Miner pointed out the submission LEVEL is another aspect of submission which is totally unrelated to 'how much work has to be done'.

My point here is not to disput the others who answered in this thread, but rather to add to them and to add this: Before you do anything, have a plan, go over it with the customer, and go from there. But I will also add, remember many times customers will ask for more than they need. Try not to do more than you need to with respect to the known and predicted effects of the change on the product.

Out of curiosity, and to better answer, what do you plan on actually doing?
 
M

Matts

#6
My point here is not to disput the others who answered in this thread
When I stated,
There is a perception here that...
The "here" was in reference to my place of employment.
Out of curiosity, and to better answer, what do you plan on actually doing?
We will again attempt to convince customer that a bulk material vendor change (supplying the same steel grade) does not require a re-PPAP submission per AIAG (Table I.3.2 third addition). We would like to forward a new warrant along with a bulk material test report (showing conformance to the print material callout) and to forward our final part test report (showing conformance to the print callout requirements). Hopefully similar to your paint customer, they will accept.
 
M

martin elliott

#7
Still confused

I have been lurking on this thread and am still a little lost as I cant find the shall.

Looking at the tables 1.3.1 and 1.3.2 and 1.3.3 Customer notification and submission requirements.

If you change bulk material supplier for a sub-part which is not designed or specified by the customer and under your own design responsibility/control, but is subsequently used within a final product, and finally that change does NOT effect fit, form or function (i.e. bought to same national spectification), do you still have to notify customer?

Martin
Older but no wiser.
 
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