Buy In and Understanding of ISO Implementation and Certification process

[Ted Schmitt]

I share your frustrations....

I work in a family business and if you ask the big boss (my Dad) what the Quality Policy is for example, he´ll say that that´s my responsibility to know... Management Review is done by me (only) and signed by Big Boss and Little Bosses (me and 2 brothers).... as Sydney said... that´s the way it is... you either have Management Commitment or not... when you don´t, you have to make do without it... What does help during our audits is that me (management rep) and 1 brother accompany the auditor the whole time and we know the system inside and out), so we usually get commended for our Management Involvement

In regards to your audit training... not sure if you are looking for Lead Auditor Training (~US$1500) or Internal Auditor Training (considerably less)... I never took a Lead Auditor Course... only Internal and never been questioned about my competency for Leading 1st and 2nd party audits... Can you try and convince your boss to pay the internal auditor training?

If not, you have another option... any Cover´s from the OP´s area that are willing to do a free / cheaper audit for a fellow Cover ? It´s not the best solution, as you will need at least one more internal audit within the next 12 months... but maybe until then you´ll get another job or convince your boss that you really need the training !

Maybe even ask the auditor to put it in the audit report that you need the formal auditor training to lead the system....

Wish you the best of luck !!

 

[KWalls - 2008]

Hello Everyone,

Thank you for all of your insight. I was surprised by some of the answers that I have received. First, let me say that I am more concerned with seeing this project through than I came off at first. The bonus/raise is just secondary... the "dangling carrot", if you will. I am very proud of what I have accomplished so far! More than anything I want to see this company receive certification because I have never had extensive QM training and to have the system that I created become certified would be a real moment of fulfillment! It would be the single most important accomplishment of my working life-so far.

Second, the responses I did not expect to receive were those that basically said that a lot of companies like mine achieve their certification. I am astonished! How does an auditor let that happen? Maybe I am wrong in thinking that they are going to "nit-pick" my system during my certification audit (I had the impression that the certification audit was a tough process)? Or will it be much like the audit that I had before where I sit down and show the auditor our manual and then show him the documents/records of the how we do things and explain as we go?

I'm definitely not trying to be negative. I'm just a perfectionist that wants this done the right way. I don't want that "facade" certification. I want the REAL thing.

 

[KWalls - 2008]

In regards to your audit training... not sure if you are looking for Lead Auditor Training (~US$1500) or Internal Auditor Training (considerably less)... I never took a Lead Auditor Course... only Internal and never been questioned about my competency for Leading 1st and 2nd party audits... Can you try and convince your boss to pay the internal auditor training?

This is exactly what I have been trying to convey to her over the last few months. I have a pretty good idea that I am on the right track for self-teaching the auditing portion. However, for confidence in myself as an auditor, I feel I need the formal training. Lead auditor is the course I had mentioned to her I would like to take, but would take the internal auditor because being a newbie to quality, I atleast needed that. I had actually asked about Lead/Internal Auditor training here in the Cove a while back. I was trying to convince my boss to let me attend DNV's course they were presenting in San Diego. Now I have lost out on that opportunity.

btw... I can't seem to make the quotes work. Maybe the quote fairy will help me out?

 

[Ted Schmitt]

Maybe I am wrong in thinking that they are going to "nit-pick" my system during my certification audit (I had the impression that the certification audit was a tough process)? Or will it be much like the audit that I had before where I sit down and show the auditor our manual and then show him the documents/records of the how we do things and explain as we go?

The certification audit is similar to the pre-audit... the auditor just goes a little deeper in the objective evidence... but all in all, it´s not that much different... don´t panic...

I'm definitely not trying to be negative. I'm just a perfectionist that wants this done the right way. I don't want that "facade" certification. I want the REAL thing.

Don´t think your system will be a facade certification, this as I can tell is "your baby" and you should be proud of your work, especially as you have stated you don´t have much QMS experience and/or training ... you should be commended for the work you have done so far, and when you do receive the magic words "I am recommending your organization for ISO 9001 certification" do pat yourself on the back because you deserve it.

Sometimes organizations do come around after the certification audit... they do realize the importance of it, don´t get yourself down about it, sometimes things have to be done in small doses... we have a saying here in Brazil that goes something like this "Soft water dripping on a hard rock, eventually it will make a hole..."

BUT, we/you need to resolve the fact of not having a complete internal audit cycle done before your certification audit.... my suggestion would be a fellow COVER that might volunteer his/her time to fulfill audit hours or contacting the nearest ASQ Chapter.

I would be happy to audit your system as we are also a machine shop and I would be familiar with your process, but I am a little far away...

 

[CalRich]

Second, the responses I did not expect to receive were those that basically said that a lot of companies like mine achieve their certification. I am astonished! How does an auditor let that happen? Maybe I am wrong in thinking that they are going to "nit-pick" my system during my certification audit (I had the impression that the certification audit was a tough process)? Or will it be much like the audit that I had before where I sit down and show the auditor our manual and then show him the documents/records of the how we do things and explain as we go?

I'm definitely not trying to be negative. I'm just a perfectionist that wants this done the right way. I don't want that "facade" certification. I want the REAL thing.

I have had similar notions as you. Our company has maintained 9001 registration for more than a decade, and there are many flaws that we can find internally. But you see them more vividly as you work there every day.
Some thoughts that come to mind from my experience:
1. Some will say that auditors are not going to be too harsh on you because they are not some government agency or something. They are a company who wants to please you, the customer. They don't want you to switch registrars because they were too draconian. So while they have ethical behavior, they can tolerate small inconsistencies.
2. The one thing I've not heard mentioned in this thread is "continual improvement". Especially if you don't have a mature QMS, there are going to be things that are overlooked or not as robust as they could be. What te auditors expect is that you have a system to find these inconsistencies and act on them. (As I write this, I'm reminded that the tool for this is internal auditing, which started this dilemma.)
3. In most cases I've seen, the auditors are not out to get you. They want to see that there is effort made. You're not the first or last company that didn't have 100% management buy-in. Our CEO wasn't present even one minute for our last audit. But we had other semi-senior members. Worked out OK.

 

[KWalls - 2008]

The certification audit is similar to the pre-audit... the auditor just goes a little deeper in the objective evidence... but all in all, it´s not that much different... don´t panic...



Don´t think your system will be a facade certification, this as I can tell is "your baby" and you should be proud of your work, especially as you have stated you don´t have much QMS experience and/or training ... you should be commended for the work you have done so far, and when you do receive the magic words "I am recommending your organization for ISO 9001 certification" do pat yourself on the back because you deserve it.

Sometimes organizations do come around after the certification audit... they do realize the importance of it, don´t get yourself down about it, sometimes things have to be done in small doses... we have a saying here in Brazil that goes something like this "Soft water dripping on a hard rock, eventually it will make a hole..."

BUT, we/you need to resolve the fact of not having a complete internal audit cycle done before your certification audit.... my suggestion would be a fellow COVER that might volunteer his/her time to fulfill audit hours or contacting the nearest ASQ Chapter.

I would be happy to audit your system as we are also a machine shop and I would be familiar with your process, but I am a little far away...

Thank you for the reassurance! I am a bit panicked... hoping that I can get this done in the next month so that we are "cleared for take off" on our audit. As for the suggestion as to a fellow Cover or the ASQ Chapter... I think that's a good place to start for me. Of course, I'd have to okay it with my boss first because I'm sure there would be some cost involved. Could I enlist the help of the local ASQ Chapter even though I am not a member? I haven't looked into joining yet, but probably will after the first of the year.

Thanks again, Ted, for your help. And yes, Brazil is a little too far! Darn!-because you sound like you have been in my shoes!

 

[Ted Schmitt]

I am a bit panicked...

Panicking is part of the process !! It´s what makes it fun !

In regards to being able to contact ASQ without being a member, can´t help you there as I am also not a member... try putting a new post in EMPLOYMENT forum or something to see if you can swing a free auditor for a day from your area...

 

[tlonkey]

My experience from working with 3 different firms within the last several years is that the company internal auditor is usually harder on audit than the 3rd party auditor providing that the auditor is competent and knowledgeable (which you seem to be btw) about the area/dept. being audited. To me the extra training is not that critical to perform a good audit. Knowledge of the area and understanding of the company quality system is more important.

As far as the excutive management buy-in to the certification process I have always used the $ amount involved vs. the $ amount of lost bussiness if we did not comply with our customer's requirement to be certified. I also made sure that the cost of failing an audit was the same or more as the $ amount of lost business. The excutive management that I have delt with always looked at the certification like a new piece of equipment and the certification process as a cost to maintain the certificate and keep certian jobs as required by our customers. The buy-in would come as we built up a history of running the company using the quality standards required by the certification and the improvements that could be identified during the Mgt review Meetings.

Anyway, good luck with your audit.

 

[Jen Kirley]

More great feedback and insight.

I want to stress that the registrar may very well ask for the evidence of competence to your auditing work in the system--your boss lady too. This is where the certificate usually gets produced and the numbers are duly written down as evidence.

Second thing is, you may well find that the registrar does not go into nearly as much depth as you expect. In surveillance audits you could expect to find incrementally deeper probing, but in registration audits the objective is to verify the system and its processes are established and functioning as designed. They are't going to spend a huge amount of time doing that.

So, while I want to encourage you to care, I want to also encourage you to not worry too much. It sounds like you know what is needed and you have the stuff to get it done. Now Management needs to do their part via support of the system, including response to fact based reviews and making resources available, ahem ahem...

 

[JaneB]

My experience from working with 3 different firms within the last several years is that the company internal auditor is usually harder on audit than the 3rd party auditor providing that the auditor is competent and knowledgeable (which you seem to be btw) about the area/dept. being audited.

Yes, I'd tend to agree.

External auditors vary a bit, but the 'average' auditor usually understand that a 'newbie' certification is only at a certain level (usually, not always!). So even if things are what you think they should be, you get to improve them afterwards...

It's a journey, that never stops in a sense. You only have to be 'just good enough' to get over that line, not perfect. Then you keep working on the things that need to be better.

Much look to you. And yes, panic is often part of the process. Try not to let it bother you too much. But making notes is a good idea to help with the failed memory, which can happen to any of us.

Ideally, the auditor should have written the need for training into her report. If she didn't - good practice for you to take your own notes of any subsequent actions required, & circulate them afterwards. (That 'management review' stuff, including records thereof!)