Calibrate Hole Presence Detection Device?

B

basselope

#1
For me, this seems fairly cut and dry, but the subject has raised some hackles during project launch.

Hypothetical: We have an automotive product that, in its finished state, has 100 holes on a common plane. We are not concerned with size, only that all 100 holes are present. It has been concluded that a $12,000 fixture would be no more functional than a piece of 2x10 lumber with 100 nails driven into as a presence detection device for this characteristic.
So let's say we decide to save $11,995 and go with the 2x10 solution. How do we address the device in our documentation?

Q1) Is it a gage?
Q2) If so, what does it measure?
Q3) How would it be "calibrated"?
Q3) In what way it that traceable to NIST?

I believe that it could not be classified as a gage (at least for TS16949 purposes) if only because I can find no way to trace its function back to NIST. Other Go/NoGo attribute gages are still based on measureable sizes, but in this case the question of "are they there?" and not "how big are they?" is evaluated. It seems more of an Existential question more suitable to Nietzsche than NIST.

Thoughts?
:popcorn:
 
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Ninja

Looking for Reality
Staff member
Super Moderator
#2
Q1) Is it a gage?
Q2) If so, what does it measure?
Q3) How would it be "calibrated"?
Q3) In what way it that traceable to NIST?

I believe that it could not be classified as a gage (at least for TS16949 purposes) if only because I can find no way to trace its function back to NIST. Other Go/NoGo attribute gages are still based on measureable sizes, but in this case the question of "are they there?" and not "how big are they?" is evaluated. It seems more of an Existential question more suitable to Nietzsche than NIST.

Thoughts?
:popcorn:
:2cents: worth only about $0.015...

Q1) Is it a gage? YES
Q2) If so, what does it measure? The PRESENCE of a hole
Q3) How would it be "calibrated"? Checked using a known good part, and adjusted to give good reading on that known good part.
Q3) In what way it that traceable to NIST?
You measure the known good part using a NIST Trace gage, then use the known good part as your reference standard for calibrating your lumber.

I agree that it's toward the existential...you'll want to run the concept by your customer before implementing it...that would be a nasty gage to use as a surprise during an audit.

{It would, however, give you some leverage during an audit...a big board with nails in it...sounds like gladiator type stuff:agree1:)
 
B

basselope

#3
Thanks for the reply, Ninja.
Interesting approach... that would give it NIST traceability, but even with a known good sample there is no verification that one of the calibrated nails hasn't fallen out since the last cycle. I suppose you could add a "plug" to the mix - moving it to each of the 100 holes and verifying that the precision 2x10 detects the blocked hole each time. Certainly better than producing 100 defect samples!

The subject actually came up during a quote review meeting with my customer. Hole size is a minor concern, hole position is nearly a non-issue, hole presence is a BIG concern! I mentioned the 2x10, to which the product design engineer said "Great! That's all it needs!"; the SQE then began to rattle off the corporate gage standards in a panicked voice; and the Buyer followed with budgetary concerns as the 2x10 began to sound increasingly expensive.

I would still contend that it is, at best, a Poka-yoke device and not wothy of "calibration" beyond simply verfying that all 100 pins are still in place (we have similar fixtures for agricultural products that have never caused a moment's trouble), but the knee jerk decision to meet boiler-plate Automotive requirements continues to push it into the realm of the $1,000 toilet seats our Government has so often been associated with.
 
J

JaxQC

#4
How about going with a Red Part Check? The 1 piece Red Part Check (defect of not having holes) would prove that the machine is functioning properly by detecting the missing holes. I would pick multiple holes to be missing which could all be done on the same one piece sample. Since it sounds like a plate and your machine detects all at once in a group or quick succession…?

Say the 4 corners and 1 towards the middle. The 4 corners capture the extreme limits of the range (proves it works out to the edges) and the 1 middle one in close together to the good holes to show that it can distinguish a missing hole in close proximity to other good holes.
 

Ninja

Looking for Reality
Staff member
Super Moderator
#5
I would still contend that it is, at best, a Poka-yoke device and not wothy of "calibration" beyond simply verfying that all 100 pins are still in place .
FWIW, I would agree with this statement. If I was the customer, I'd have trouble swallowing a "calibration" on a 2x10 with nails.

That's what I meant by my above "logic" being short of the two cents...it is a stretch to be sure to say 2x10 board and NIST in the same sentence.
 
B

basselope

#6
How about going with a Red Part Check?


That still strikes me as being more appropriate to a poke-yoke device than a gage. And frankly, I'd always be worried about the other 94 holes that aren't being validated.

Ninja said:
[it is a stretch to be sure to say 2x10 board and NIST in the same sentence
I sorta feel the same way, but why would a nice, pretty machined plate with gage pins lovingly placed in perfect geometry be any more valid to the purpose of the fixture? I just can't help but feel that if I can't get my 2x10 to work under the rules, the rules are either lacking or are being improperly applied.

Good food for thought here guys. Thanks!
 
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