Calibration Data Before & After Readings (TS 16949 Requirement)

  • Thread starter jane_ackerman - 2010
  • Start date
J

jane_ackerman - 2010

#1
Our current procedure (for any calibration - in house or outsourced) requires checking all test points before even cleaning the gage.
I question whether this is overkill in our procedure.
Is this really what the standard is implying?
I personally would think that it is implying "before readings" are to represent readings collected before any adjustments are made (not including removal of build up during shift production)??

When we have only a 5 micron tolerance on plug gages, this could make several plugs appear out of tolerance (after only one use)... but when they are wiped off they are fine.
This shift build up, does not affect product quality because it simply slides up the gage when it is inserted into the next part and is wiped off each shift.

Wondering what others consider a "before" reading to be.
If there are any TS auditors out there, please give insight.

Thanks!
 
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Jim Wynne

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#2
jane_ackerman said:
I personally would think that it is implying "before readings" are to represent readings collected before any adjustments are made (not including removal of build up during shift production)??
No, because calibration doesn't necessarily include adjustment. What you want to know is the condition of the gage as received. Cleaning should only be done after the as-received measurements are done, so as to mirror the use of the gage in the condition it was last used in production.

jane_ackerman said:
When we have only a 5 micron tolerance on plug gages, this could make several plugs appear out of tolerance (after only one use)... but when they are wiped off they are fine.
This shift build up, does not affect product quality because it simply slides up the gage when it is inserted into the next part and is wiped off each shift.
If cleanliness of the gage doesn't affect measurement results, then cleaning before measurement is reasonable, but I would expect that you would have data to back up the assertion.
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J

jane_ackerman - 2010

#3
As to mirror the use of the gage in the condition it was last used in production.
This is how we have always done it - but like I said, if production wipes them off, wouldn't I be mirroring production if I did the same thing?

If cleanliness of the gage doesn't affect measurement results, then cleaning before measurement is reasonable,
The cleanliness does affect the measurement results.

but I would expect that you would have data to back up the assertion.
So.... if I were to have X number of documented instances, where the coolant / shift build up on the gage was the culprit of the OOT condition... and that the investigation of product quality showed zero non-conforming parts as a result, this might suffice (to an auditor) as to allow me to wipe the gage down first?
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#4
jane_ackerman said:
As to mirror the use of the gage in the condition it was last used in production.
This is how we have always done it - but like I said, if production wipes them off, wouldn't I be mirroring production if I did the same thing?
Yes.

jane_ackerman said:
If cleanliness of the gage doesn't affect measurement results, then cleaning before measurement is reasonable,
jane_ackerman said:
The cleanliness does affect the measurement results.
I was referring to production measurement results, not calibration measurement results. Sorry for the confusion.

jane_ackerman said:
but I would expect that you would have data to back up the assertion.
jane_ackerman said:
So.... if I were to have X number of documented instances, where the coolant / shift build up on the gage was the culprit of the OOT condition... and that the investigation of product quality showed zero non-conforming parts as a result, this might suffice (to an auditor) as to allow me to wipe the gage down first?
Yes. But--if you're receiving dirty gages from production, and you've ascertained that dirty gages = potentially erroneous results (even if you don't know of a specific instance in production) then maybe production people need some training in gage handling and maintenance, which might obviate the need for you to be concerned about it for calibration purposes. In the end, I think it's common to wipe down a pin gage prior to calibration, so I don't see this as being an issue with regard to auditors. Just out of curiousity though, if your tolerance is 5 microns, what do you use to calibrate them?
 
J

jane_ackerman - 2010

#5
Jim Wynne said:
Just out of curiousity though, if your tolerance is 5 microns, what do you use to calibrate them?
I use a bench micrometer with an electronic amplifier that reads to .00001 mm (I think this is called 10 nanometers?) in conjunction with Grade 1 JO Blocks.
 
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Jim Wynne

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Admin
#6
jane_ackerman said:
I use a bench micrometer with an electronic amplifier that reads to .00001 mm (I think this is called 10 nanometers?) in conjunction with Grade 1 JO Blocks.
Geez--that seems like many orders of magnitude of overkill--what are you measuring with those pins, bacteria?
 
J

jane_ackerman - 2010

#7
Jim Wynne said:
Geez--that seems like many orders of magnitude of overkill--what are you measuring with those pins, bacteria?
Ha Ha! Actually, when I started here, all they were using was the benchmic... but it only reads to .002 mm alone. I found the amplifier in a cabinet (never used) and it sufficed to meet our needs.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#8
jane_ackerman said:
Ha Ha! Actually, when I started here, all they were using was the benchmic... but it only reads to .002 mm alone. I found the amplifier in a cabinet (never used) and it sufficed to meet our needs.
:topic: slightly, I guess, but I once took a job as A quality manager and found that the incoming inspection department had an 80-inch vernier caliper. Naturally, I was curious as to what it was used for. Turned out that it was used to measure sheet metal panels that were about five feet long, toleranced at +/- .010." I queried the responsible engineer who said the close tolerance wasn't really necessary; he just defaulted to the block tolerance for 3-decimal place callouts. The tolerance got changed to +/- 1/16" (which was still liberal) and so far as I know, the giant caliper was never used again.:frust:
 
J

jane_ackerman - 2010

#9
Jim Wynne said:
:topic: slightly, I guess, but I once took a job as A quality manager and found that the incoming inspection department had an 80-inch vernier caliper. Naturally, I was curious as to what it was used for. Turned out that it was used to measure sheet metal panels that were about five feet long, toleranced at +/- .010." I queried the responsible engineer who said the close tolerance wasn't really necessary; he just defaulted to the block tolerance for 3-decimal place callouts. The tolerance got changed to +/- 1/16" (which was still liberal) and so far as I know, the giant caliper was never used again.:frust:
At least your scenario wasn't reversed.
When I came on board, I had operators measuring a product dimension that had a 3 decimal metric tolerance with a 2 decimal caliper.
:bonk:
 
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