Calibration Data Packages - CMM - Any way around "As found data?"

B

Bigbear

#1
We have a CMM and some form measuring equipment that are on a 12-month calibration cycle. The software packages they use are proprietary, so the manufacturer has to do the calibrations, and they charge another arm and half a leg to include "as found data" with the calibrations. Even my registrar is saying we're getting reamed over this. Is there any way to get around including the "As found" data package in our calibrations? We have to show that the equipment was within spec when the verification was done, right? I've asked and they won't just include an "As found: In tolerance" block on the cert without paying for the "As found data" package.:truce:
 
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Al Rosen

Staff member
Super Moderator
#2
Bigbear said:
We have a CMM and some form measuring equipment that are on a 12-month calibration cycle. The software packages they use are proprietary, so the manufacturer has to do the calibrations, and they charge another arm and half a leg to include "as found data" with the calibrations. Even my registrar is saying we're getting reamed over this. Is there any way to get around including the "As found" data package in our calibrations? We have to show that the equipment was within spec when the verification was done, right? I've asked and they won't just include an "As found: In tolerance" block on the cert without paying for the "As found data" package.:truce:
They are certainly taking advantage if they won't include a statement. Have you tried to find someone else to do the calibration?
 
B

Bigbear

#3
Al Rosen said:
They are certainly taking advantage if they won't include a statement. Have you tried to find someone else to do the calibration?
As I said before, the software for the equipment is proprietary. I could get someone to come in and do verification, I suppose, but they would not have the ability to do any kind of adjustments to the equipment. If the equipment needed any adjustments, I'd be out the cost of the initial verification, and then subject to the costs that I would have incurred anyway from the manufacturer's tech. Over the past year the straightness of my roundtest column went out of manuf. spec by 0.04um. Not enough to hurt any readings I had made, but it was out of spec and had to be adjusted back in. If I had someone else do the verification, they could not have adjusted it back in, and I would have had to pay for their work and the manufacturer's, too.
 

Caster

An Early Cover
Trusted Information Resource
#4
TS or ISO

Bigbear said:
We have a CMM ... Is there any way to get around including the "As found" data package in our calibrations? ....
Bigbear

Are you QS/TS or ISO 9000 certified? Only QS/TS requires that you record as found. ISO 9000 does not require this. 17025 likely does.

Hmmmm....and more hmmmm. Look fof the baby before you pitch out the bath water. Don't forget why as found got into some of the standards in the first place.

You accepted parts with the CMM from the last cal right up to this cal. If you don't document your as found....how do I know your CMM was in cal for that period. All you can show me is that it is now in spec.

Hard to believe but some auto makers got burned bad by this. Hard to believe but some suppliers would rather not deal with product measured with an out of cal device.

Our CMM is calibrated by the manufacturer and they provide as found, as left, and even uncertainty, no extra charge.
 
B

Bigbear

#6
Maybe I should restate my question: How do you assess and record the validity of the previous measuring results when the equipment is found not to conform to requirements (and I know this is a requirement of ISO 9001:2000) unless you have the "As found" data? Having a Cert that says "As Found: Out of Spec", "As Left: In Spec" doesn't give you the information needed to make this assessment. When my CMM is found to be "Out of Spec", it's always just a micron or two, and doesn't impact my measurements, but I have to have the data showing that micron or 2 to prove no impact. Now the manufacturer is saying they only offer "As found" data when I go with the more expensive ( an added $800) A2LA calibration (Which I don't require) and their closest tech qualified to do the A2LA calibration is hours away from me so the travel expenses I must pay is quadrupled! The tech that is qualified for standard calibration is in my city. I won't name names, but the name of my CMM starts with a "Z".;)
 
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Miner

Forum Moderator
Staff member
Admin
#7
Something you might check in to: Sometimes an employee from such a company will retire/quit and go into business for themselves. They know the software (until a major change) and will usually provide a lot more for less money. I have been able to do this twice on different CMMs.

Of course this is a lot harder if you need ISO 17025 accreditation on your calibration source. But some go ahead and get it.
 

Hershal

Metrologist-Auditor
Staff member
Super Moderator
#8
Here is reality.....if you can find someone who is accredited to calibrate your CMM then as found/as left data may or may NOT be provided depending on software, whether the CMM is OOT (Out Of Tolerance) or not, or other circumstances.

Under ANSI/ISO/IEC 17025 as found/as left data is not required, unless the device is OOT or broken or similar. Then you need it in order to use your corrective action system.

On other note, in the U.S. you can can use a lab accredited by: IAS, A2LA, NVLAP, L-A-B, ACLASS, SCC/CLAS (Canada), or EMA (Mexico).

Hope this helps.

Hershal
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#9
Hershal said:
Here is reality.....if you can find someone who is accredited to calibrate your CMM then as found/as left data may or may NOT be provided depending on software, whether the CMM is OOT (Out Of Tolerance) or not, or other circumstances.

Under ANSI/ISO/IEC 17025 as found/as left data is not required, unless the device is OOT or broken or similar. Then you need it in order to use your corrective action system.

On other note, in the U.S. you can can use a lab accredited by: IAS, A2LA, NVLAP, L-A-B, ACLASS, SCC/CLAS (Canada), or EMA (Mexico).

Hope this helps.

Hershal

Hershal, I have placed a post on this topic of which Accreditation Bodies are legit. Could you review the other detailed post. I agree with your list, but am looking for a definitive answer for a TS client who wants to know who decided only these AB's are approved to issue 17025 certificates. I would love to have a definitive answer.

Thanks in advance.
 
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