Calibration of Foundry Tool Room Equipment

S

Stubod

#1
Hi Forum,

..we are a foundry that operates its own toolroom.

We use measuring equipment in the toolroom, but not to validate product.

We have been advised by one auditor that we need to calibrate this equipment, and by another auditor that we do not, (as we always validate the parts that the tools make using calibrated equipment).

What does anybody else think?

Thanks,

Stu
 
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Ron Rompen

Trusted Information Resource
#2
Re: callibration - toolroom equipment

I have found the ISO standard to be a little vague on this; the requirement (Section 7.6) is worded in such a way that it could be interpreted to mean ALL measuring equipment, whether used to validate product conformance or not.
"the organization shall determine the monitoring and measurement to be undertaken and the monitoring and measuring equipment needed to provide evidence of conformity of product to determined requirements"

That 'and' in the second line is what (possibly) the auditor is using as the validation of his finding.

Even if your toolroom equipment isn't INTENDED to validate product, is there a possibility that it would be used for this purpose? Or is the potential effect of an out-of-calibration tool a nonconforming part?

In either case, I would suggest that calibration of these tools/gauges would be a valid requirement.
 
S

Stubod

#3
Re: callibration - toolroom equipment

Hi Ron,

..thanks for your response. I would interpret the statement "to provide evidence of conformity of product"...ie we do not use the equipment to validate product, this is validated seperately using calibrated equipment.

Thanks for the input..

Stu
 
D

David DeLong

#4
Re: callibration - toolroom equipment

I have found the ISO standard to be a little vague on this; the requirement (Section 7.6) is worded in such a way that it could be interpreted to mean ALL measuring equipment, whether used to validate product conformance or not.
"the organization shall determine the monitoring and measurement to be undertaken and the monitoring and measuring equipment needed to provide evidence of conformity of product to determined requirements"

That 'and' in the second line is what (possibly) the auditor is using as the validation of his finding.

Even if your toolroom equipment isn't INTENDED to validate product, is there a possibility that it would be used for this purpose? Or is the potential effect of an out-of-calibration tool a nonconforming part?

In either case, I would suggest that calibration of these tools/gauges would be a valid requirement.
I agree with you Ron on this but performing calibration on personal equipment in the tool room can be difficult. Tool Room personnel use their measuring equipment on tools and, ultimately, product samples.
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
#5
Re: Calibration of Tool Room Equipment

I have run across this for years, and there are two things about the underlying question that I find...well, amusing.

First is the logic that if the standard doesn't "make" you do it, you simply do not have to. The standard is not there to think for you. It tries to guide you to a logic that will improve your business, but it is not in loco parentis.

The most amazing thing is a toolmake'rs resistance to ensuring their gages are reading correctly by verifying them to a standard. That is a fascinating paradox, in that they believe they are the pinnacle of skilled tradesmen (and I agree they are extremely skilled) but have no sense of connection between their work and a national standard for measurement. I find this even a problem at the college where I teach that quality people have to take metrology, but the people taking machining classes do not. So, the notion is reinforced. But, I find it baseless at best.

I guess the logic is that toolmaker's gages measure perfectly and never need calibrated because they are never used? No wear....no bumps....pristine?
 
J

jasonb067

#6
Re: Callibration of Tool Room Equipment

With Bob on this one.

Why not calibrate?

What are the benefits of not ensuring the measuring instrument is actually calling an inch a inch?
 
D

dbulak

#7
Re: callibration - toolroom equipment

I agree with you Ron on this but performing calibration on personal equipment in the tool room can be difficult. Tool Room personnel use their measuring equipment on tools and, ultimately, product samples.
I solved this situation over 20 years ago. All our operators who do the validation of product use company owned equipment. The we set up a real time recordinding system where a calibrated device is used to take measurements.
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
#8
Re: calibration - toolroom equipment

I solved this situation over 20 years ago. All our operators who do the validation of product use company owned equipment. The we set up a real time recording system where a calibrated device is used to take measurements.
This is a great approach - there is no argument when it comes to calibrating company equipment. So, I agree, for the subset of measuring equipment that validate product you are set - and to meet the lowest expectation of the standard, you can probably convince or, at least, wear down most auditors.

For any other measuring equipment, to use Quality Level TCE simply is baseless and backyard - especially for tooling used to make product. But, people have convinced themselves that really knowing if a gage is still reading correctly harms their station in life. It is odd.
 

Ninja

Looking for Reality
Staff member
Super Moderator
#9
Re: Callibration of Tool Room Equipment

Hmmm, each time I post I feel like a money grubbing capitalist:confused:

What are the benefits of not ensuring the measuring instrument is actually calling an inch a inch?
Cash in my pocket. Calibration costs money.

The real question is not what are the benefits one way or the other, but whether the cost is higher one way or the other.

Which costs less:
A) Calibrating the tools on a regular basis.
B) Ensuring that a non-calibrated tool is never used for acceptance testing.

Either of these approaches fit the bill for the quality system...which one makes the most financial sense?

Important note: Don't miss the word "Ensure" in option B. Believing that it's OK isn't good enough. How are you making SURE they aren't being used for acceptance testing...that's where option B might actually become more expensive.
 

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
#10
Re: Callibration of Tool Room Equipment

A couple of notes from my experience.

First, it is not so much of "knowing" the personal equipment is reading correctly, but rather keeping it in a documented system. If you have several toolmakers, each with his own set of gages, the numbers you need to keep track of gets rather large, with little benefit gained.

Second, most toolmakers regularly check and calibrate their gages to ensure that they are still measuring correctly. Nobody wants make that several thousand $ error.

The trouble arises when some dude from QA comes in and says he has to calibrate their gages. Generally, toolmakers don't want anyone touching their stuff.

Our workaround these issues was simple. All toolmaker's gages are in the calibration system. The toolmaker, himself, is responsible for calibrating his own gages at the required time. QA lets them know that it is time and they report their completion back to QA who maintains the database. They also may be on a longer calibration schedules. Seems to work well. Good luck.
 
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