Calibration vs "Golden Part" ("Control Sample")

shellig

Starting to get Involved
#1
I am trying to determine the best way to communicate a concern with our testing facilities.

We have a "control sample" or "golden part" representative of the material we are producing and a calibration standard.

The settings to run the machine are different for the calibration standard (spherical steel ball) and the control sample (sample of powder).

Facility 1: “We saw that there was a drift in the measurement of the control sample over time. At the same time checking the calibration standard showed no drift. “ So they stopped doing the weekly test with the control sample and only use the calibration standard. They say they have no issues with consistency or with contamination from our material of the unit. They say the do not need to re-calibrate.

Facility 2: uses the control sample weekly and has to re-calibrate the unit about monthly. They also see degradation in the measurement from the unit over time (the unit does repeat tests as part of the run and reports standard deviation which broadens over time) due to contamination and about quarterly have to service the unit for that reason. They also test with the calibration standard if they find there is an issue.

One of the issues for me in resolving this is I have not seen the data from either facility on either the calibration standard or control sample results over time.

However, I believe the "drift" comment is exactly why you have a control sample (golden part) using the material you are trying to test. This is also why you should be calibrating the unit to adjust to prevent drift on the material you are trying to test. The calibration standard says the machine is working as expected, the control sample says the process to test is working as expected.

What would be your approach to this?
I really appreciate any feedback on this to help my understanding and to ensure the facilities are consistent and appropriate in their practice.
 
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Ninja

Looking for Reality
Staff member
Super Moderator
#2
re: Calibration vs "Golden Part" ("Control Sample")

What test are you running?
On what type of equipment?
 

Ninja

Looking for Reality
Staff member
Super Moderator
#4
Any powder control sample (if used over and over on the same sample) will drift due to the gas exposure. Not to mention temperature and humidity of storage (adsorption of H2O forming -OH bonds)
The pretreatment handles absorption, but not adsorption)

If you want to use a "golden part", it has to be a bulk of powder stored in inert atmosphere that you sample from until it is gone.

For gas pycnometry, the concept of "golden part" is very difficult to implement.
The best you are likely to get is to save off ~2Kg of an approved lot that will last a couple years under Argon of dry N2, then use it to prove a second "golden part" then.
There is likely to be long term drift, but that can be handled by using your steel sphere...

What do you think?
 

shellig

Starting to get Involved
#5
We do not reuse the sample. The powder is not hygroscopic. The "control sample" comes from a production lot from another facility and is updated a couple of times a year and stored in a controlled environment. It is not really a "golden part" but is a sample that should be stable and provide a consistent tool for evaluating the measurement device ability to measure our product.

I have no problem abandoning the "control sample" use but if we do, I want it to be for the right reasons.

The issue is the way the measurement works, gas has to permeate the sample. It is totally different going through particulate matter vs. around a steel sphere.

The particulate gets into the passages in the device where it is adding and removing gas over time causing constriction and blockage of filters. When we see the standard deviation increasing over time, it is indicative of this and can sometimes cause a fault because the gas has not completely permeated the sample in the expected time (not due to moisture adsorption- happens on production samples as well). You never see that error with the calibration sphere.

I am still not understanding how Facility 1 does not have issues with this. Would be great if it can be avoided.
 

Ninja

Looking for Reality
Staff member
Super Moderator
#6
Sounds like a root cause analysis "why is Fac1 different from Fac2?" is in order.

I agree that a big steel ball is less than optimal for control of SSA measure.

Why not buy 100Kg of a single lot of representative powder (Sumitomo AKP-53 for example) to use as an "actual real world zero". That way you wouldn't have to change your reference multiple times a year, just every three years...

You are using a gas Pyc. Why not just use a Fisher Sub Sieve Sizer? Is that not accurate enough? (Good luck with the GRR though...)
 
#7
I'm not sure if it's the right forum, anyway here's the question:
We are an internal calibration laboratory, we have a 5500a calibrator; which suffered damage which causes that we have to send the equipment to calibrate outside the company
the repair time is very long and I have about 100 equipment to calibrate
can I use a provisional verification method example: "golden piece" while repairing the 5500a calibrator?
Can this protect us in a TS 16949 audit?
What can we argue to avoid a non-conformity?
thanks for the support
 
#8
A golden piece is usually only one point, and, as such only a verification. Not sure it qualifies as "calibration". Can you find a lab to help out over the repair period?
 
#9
What we are trying to establish is the following:
repair cost approx $ 6000
Cost of sending equipment outside approx $ 5500
together usd $ 11500
If we stop sending them to calibrate outside the company in the span of 8 weeks we can pay the cost of the repair
We are trying to protect our economy and at the same time comply with the audit
 
#10
Can the staff assume this risk and be able to defend it in an audit of TS16949?
What would we use?
it is true the golden piece is only in a single point
if we made measurements of repeatability, bias or a complete GRR?
thanks for the support
 
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