Definition Calibration vs. Verification of Calibration vs. Verification - Definitions

harry

Super Moderator
#31
Re: Calibration vs. Verification - Definitions

Yes, those were my interpretations based on reading in between the lines and my understanding of the subject.

In other words, you are looking for a specific document with all these words explained (when you talk about normative reference) so that others do not need to guess what it means. I am not sure if such a document exists?

What about definitions by and found in 'NIST' documents? Do you or can you accept them as 'the' interpretation?
 
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Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#33
Re: Calibration vs. Verification - Definitions

Hi Marc,

Thank you for the links to similar threads.
Proof that history repeats itself. For an excellent reason though...;)

But I'm concerned that some Covers get too carried away with semantics..:frust::frust:

Stijloor.
 
D

DsqrdDGD909

#34
Re: Calibration vs. Verification - Definitions

Marc's posted reminded me of my Dad..."If I have to come upstairs one more time to quiet you kids down, I'll..."

Thanks Marc.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#35
Re: Calibration vs. Verification - Definitions

Yes, those were my interpretations based on reading in between the lines and my understanding of the subject.

In other words, you are looking for a specific document with all these words explained (when you talk about normative reference) so that others do not need to guess what it means. I am not sure if such a document exists?

What about definitions by and found in 'NIST' documents? Do you or can you accept them as 'the' interpretation?

I think we could benefit from a review of the question at hand, and some explanation on my part. I know that many here probably think I'm being nit-picky and pedantic, but...

Here is the original statement from AndyN, which has now been split from this thread (thanks, Brad :agree1:):
... if anyone is making decisions about product or process 'acceptability' (does it meet a specification), then the equipment used should be calibrated or at least verified as operating correctly.
My response was
"Calibrated" and "verified as operating correctly" are the same thing.
ISO 9001-2000 (7.6)says that measurement devices used in making decisions must be
calibrated or verified at specified intervals, or prior to use, against measurement standards traceable to international or national measurement standards...
Note that (A) there is no explanation of the difference between "calibrated" and "verified" in the standard (or any reference I know of) and (B) in either case, it says that standards must be traceable.


Thence opened the floodgates. :mad::D

This all has to do with definition of terms and normative references; both ideas are fundamentals in our profession. Ironically though, they seem to be among the most widely misunderstood or overlooked concepts. It boils down to this: if you use terms in your documentation (and this applies to everyone, including ISO) that may be subject to more than one definition, you must provide a definition that becomes the "court of last resort." That's what a "normative reference" is. If I provide a definition of a term in my quality manual, and the manual is duly approved, everyone else in the company is enjoined from creating their own definitions or interpretations regardless of any commonly-accepted denotations. Dictionary denotations should be deviated from only when absolutely necessary, but when it's important that everyone singin' from the same hymnal, you do what you have to do to maintain clarity and order.

In the present case, insofar as the ISO-9001-2000 is concerned, "calibrated" and "verified" both unambiguously mean that applicable devices must be compared to a traceable standard. Anyone who disagrees with this is reading something that ain't there. Furthermore, ISO provides no normative reference which would lead us to believe that there is a substantive difference between calibrating a device against a traceable standard and verifying a device against a traceable standard. Furthermore, we know (or at least I hope we know) that calibration is nothing more than the act of comparing something (anything, not just a measurement device) to a standard. ISO-9001 expands the definition slightly to require traceability of the standard(s) used, but that expansion also applies to "verified."

Now--if someone can supply a traceable :cool: normative reference that contradicts what I've said, I will gladly concede the matter and feel better for having learned something. When I say a traceable normative standard, I mean one for which an unbroken trail exists between ISO-9001-2000 and the definitions. I'm not looking for someone's personal interpretation or opinion; this is a matter of black-and-white.

Finally, a word about why it's worth making an issue over something like this. This is a widely-referenced forum, and beyond terrific group of people we've come to know and respect, many people who never register and never post look to it for information. For all of us who post regularly, we need to do our best to make sure that the most accurate information possible is presented. Errors need to be corrected when they pop up in order to maintain the integrity of the system. There is nothing personal in this. I've made mistakes myself; we all do from time to time. But we owe it to everyone who comes here to do our best to make sure we provide good advice. :D
 

harry

Super Moderator
#36
Thanks for your post, Jim. We (or at least I) learned not to assume things.

Perhaps you would like to look at this link for a draft copy of 'International vocabulary of basic and general terms in metrology (VIM)'. Definitions of calibration, verification and validation (as in ISO 9001) are given therein (page 20-22). I do not think there are much changes in the final copy.
 
D

DsqrdDGD909

#37
Re: Calibration vs. Verification - Definitions

From Harry's Link above:

(From 2.27 verification)
"NOTE
Verification should not be confused with calibration of a measuring system, or vice versa." :confused:


Ok - how about real world examples:

1. I use the services of a 17025 lab to calibrate my analytical scales using NIST traceable weights.
Q. This can be referred to as either calibration or verification?

2. I buy a set of NIST traceable weights to "check" my scales in between calibrations/verifications from #1 above.
Q. What is this called?

3. I buy/use a set of weights that are not traceable to NIST for use as an operator check in between whatever we call #2 above.
Q. What is this called?
 
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Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#38
Re: Calibration vs. Verification - Definitions

There are no normative definitions given in this link, and its definition of "verification" seems to indicate that calibration is a form of verification.
This one is mostly a discussion of the meaning of "calibration," and whether or not "calibration" necessarily includes adjustment. I think we've agreed that it doesn't.
I didn't read the whole thread, but there doesn't seem to be anything that authoritatively addresses the question at hand. There's some interesting conversation, but no real meat. At one point, one person provides yet another unfounded definition for "verification": Verification is the act of using the data from calibration (or in-service check) to determine suitability for a task.
This conversation is mainly about validation vs. calibration.
More interesting discussion, with one Cover providing his own definition of verification, without normative reference.
This thread generally treats calibration and verification as synonymous.
I don't think the definition of "calibration" is in question.

The question here should be qualified to be:

Calibration vs. Verification of Calibration.
All due respect, but the question is, "For the purposes of ISO-9001-2000, is there a substantive, defined difference between "calibrated" and "verified?"
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#39
Thanks for your post, Jim. We (or at least I) learned not to assume things.

Perhaps you would like to look at this link for a draft copy of 'International vocabulary of basic and general terms in metrology (VIM)'. Definitions of calibration, verification and validation (as in ISO 9001) are given therein (page 20-22). I do not think there are much changes in the final copy.
Thanks for the link, Harry. It seems to be a step in the right direction, but the definition given for "verification" which is
confirmation through examination of a given item and provision of objective evidence that it fulfils specified requirements
seems to aptly describe the calibration process, but then we're warned in a note that...
Verification should not be confused with calibration of a measuring system, or vice versa.
EXAMPLES
a) Demonstration that a given reference material as claimed is homogeneous down to samples having a mass of 10 mg for the quantity and measurement procedure concerned.
b) Demonstration that stated performance properties of a measuring system are achieved.
The examples given aren't particulary helpful; what they seem to be saying is that calibration is a form of verification, and vice-versa, but don't call calibration "verification," and vice-versa. :confused:
 

harry

Super Moderator
#40
The following is a word for word reproduction of the definition from VIM

2.22 Calibration – definition (a) – { definition (b) for IEC related matters}

Operation establishing the relation between quantity values provided by measurement standards and the corresponding indications of a measuring system, carried out under specified conditions and including evaluation of measurement uncertainty.

Notes 1: the relations referred to in definitions (a) and (b) can be expressed by calibration diagrams, calibration function, or calibration tables.


2.27 Verification

Confirmation through examination of a given item and provision of objective evidence that it fulfils specified requirements.

Note: verification should not be confused with calibration of a measuring system, or vice versa.
To me, the obvious difference is that calibration need to be carried out under specified conditions and includes evaluation of measurement uncertainty.

Uncertainty is in turn an essential part of traceability. Without the measurement uncertainty part, the traceability chain is broken (even if all the other essential components that contribute to traceability remain the same).

Can we now safely conclude that the key difference between calibration and verification is the need for determination of measurement uncertainty.
 
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