Calibration Without A Standard

A

Anton Ovsianko

#1
non-standard calibration

Dear all,

Could you please help me take over my metrology ignorance.


I found out that I really cannot explain what it means to register a base for calibration of a measuring device, when there is no standard for it (7.6 a). Please, help me by an example.

Another question is again probably to my poor English. What is really the difference between calibration and verification in 7.6 Russian translation unfortunately is not perfect. This particular point looks pretty misleading in Russian.


Thanks


Anton
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
K

Ken K

#2
Verification - To verify a piece of equipment is within tolerance between calibration intervals.

If you send a piece of equipment out for calibration to an accredited lab, say on a yearly basis, the checks you do on that equipment during that year is verification.

Your first point. Do you have a piece of equipment that needs to be calibrated but there is no procedure to do it against?
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#3
Anton,

I do not understand your first question. Do you have something that needs to be calibrated but there is no national or international standard? If so, I have faced this before and what I do is this: Create your own standard based on an agreed value for an agreed part (standard) between you and your customer. If you are measuring parameter "X" on a part that you are selling to your customer, you and your customer can pick a part, agree on the value of parameter "X" for that part, and use it to calibrate your measuring device. You will need to write a procedure as to how to calibrate, how often, etc.
 
K

Ken K

#4
I would also check with the OEM of the equipment for advice on calibration. They should have a procedure they use.

If not, Mike S. gave a solution I would follow.
 
A

Anton Ovsianko

#5
Thanks,

As far as I understand registration in 7.6.a in ISO 9k2k does not imply going to a standardization body or an accredited lab to get calibratiuon basis registered. I just have to work the basis out, describe it and agree with customer (or other interested parties).

Anton
 
D

David Mullins

#6
Anton,
You don't have to have the standard agreed by a customer. Make your own documented procedure for calibration.
Also be able to prove that there is no standard that applies.

Verification is often same/like samples tested by multiple labs. The results demonstrate/verify that the labs involved have consistency of method - or not, as is often the case.
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#7
Reading the new standard it looks to me like if you decide you need to do a calibration, and a national/international standard exists, you must use that national/international standard as a basis for the calibration. However, I can see cases where you (the vendor) and your customer (or a whole industry) may agree to use a different method/standard for calibration even though an international standard may exist -- perhaps because of cost, a history of doing it differently before the international standard came out, etc.

This would be one of those cases to me where you should do what is best for your company, not something different just to satisfy the standard. But, maybe you need the ISO cert. To avoid being in a pissing contest with an auditor over this issue how would you folks suggest this issue be handled? A letter of agreement with the customer saying that such-and-such is the agreed-upon way to calibrate machine "X" regardless of the availability of an international standard??? Other ideas???

Also, is the burden of proof on the company being audited to prove that a national or international standard does not exist for a given measurement? Sometimes it is hard to prove something does not exist.
 
K

Ken K

#8
Section 5.4.1 of ISO 17025 states "The laboratory shall use appropriate methods and procedures."

Section 5.4.2 of ISO 17025 states "Use appropriate calibration methods, preferably international, regional or national standards"

Further down it states "Laboratory methods or methods adopted may be used if approprite for the intended use and validated. Client informed of method selected."


Ya gotta love these guys. Nothing open to interpretation here:D


Also, is the burden of proof on the company being audited to prove that a national or international standard does not exist for a given measurement? Sometimes it is hard to prove something does not exist.
Just for S&G's, let the auditor prove otherwise. As long as the method you choose or write is appropriate for you and the client, the auditor should have no concern.


Now, ISO 9K2K might be another story.
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#9
Ken,

That was the jist of my question -- in reference to 9K2K. 17025 seems clearer to me than 9K2K. "Appropriate" and "preferably" are two good weasel words -- not to weasel out of doing a good job but to give you room to operate and use non-international calibration standards/methods when that works for you and your customers. IMO ISO should not prescribe what standards you use.
 
R

Ryan Wilde

#10
At this point, some clarification of terms is in order. ISO considers the word "method" to be very different from "procedure" or "standard". When ISO 17025 states "laboratory methods" versus "nationally or internationally recognized methods", what it means to say is how the data is derived.

For example:
I have to calibrate a micrometer, but I have no procedure. I write a procedure that uses gauge blocks for spindle linearity, and optical parallels with a monochromatic light for anvil flatness and parallelism. You use tolerances that were prescribed by the manufacturer of the micrometer on the specification sheet.

From this I can conclude:
You HAVE used nationally or internationally accepted methods, namely gauge blocks for length and optical parallels for flatness and parallelism. You have not invented a new METHOD, you just wrote your own procedure using standard methods. If you used a doppler laser to gauge spindle travel, your method would be non-standard, and you would have to validate it, get customer approval, etc.

I don't know how well this post will translate for our non-English friends, but this is how the English versions of ISO standards are meant to be interpreted.

Ryan
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
A Automated calibration of Digital Multimeter without communication port Calibration and Metrology Software and Hardware 2
S How to get calibration vendors (manufacturers in particular) approved without 17025 ISO 17025 related Discussions 8
P Certificate of Calibration (CoC) for Item without a Serial Number? General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 4
C Correct Calibration Method for Dial Depth Gage General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 6
F Nist traceable calibration certificates General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 1
G Tool tracebility and First calibration requirements for aerospace (AS9100) organisation AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 5
D Calibration of Digital thermometer with surface probe General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 1
T Calibration or Verification -> Cm and Cmk, etc. Definitions, Acronyms, Abbreviations and Interpretations Listed Alphabetically 3
Q Quality Technician (calibration / metrology) - Memphis, TN Job Openings, Consulting and Employment Opportunities 1
G Is repeatability required for equipment calibration? General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 10
was named killer AS 9100D - Calibration Instructions - Controlled documents? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 6
B Photovoltaic Tester Calibration General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 0
B Temperature loop: partial calibration General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 10
G Glass scale calibration at 74 degrees F? General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 4
A Digital Timer Calibration Requirements General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 3
Ron Rompen Barcode Verifier Calibration and Use Calibration and Metrology Software and Hardware 5
S Is Optical Parallel Set required calibration? ISO 17025 related Discussions 1
A Calibration of Power Supplies AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2
D Calibration Process Flow Map Example Wanted General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 3
M Calibration or Verification? What terminology to use ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 1
N Calibration Requirements for Production Equipment ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
S Calibration Equipment Selection General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 2
D Sample Calibration SOP for ISO 13485 General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 4
L Calibration of Plug Gauges - Tolerancing General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 1
L In house calibration - Our CMM's are outside certified can I use them to certify our standards General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 4
R Standard Filter for Calibration Colorimeter ISO 17025 related Discussions 1
J Documenting a Calibration Interval Extension Calibration Frequency (Interval) 7
F Calibration certificate content - Average Value and True Value ISO 17025 related Discussions 6
B Oscilloscope - AC gain calibration General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 6
G Is it common to do a repeatability check during calibration of an instrument? General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 5
A Adjustment of Calibration Intervals (Shortening or Lengthen) Calibration Frequency (Interval) 6
A Calibration required by OEM General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 2
S ISO17020 - Equipment calibration requirement General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 3
H Can a calibration lab still use ISO 6789:2003 as guide for torque calibrations Other ISO and International Standards and European Regulations 1
H Calibration of InfraRan Vapor Analyzer - where to get calibration for SF6 General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 2
M How to read a calibration certificate for thermo hygrometer General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 2
L Calibration Frequency for Surftest SJ-400 General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 0
C External Laboratories and OEM Calibration IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 0
V Ammeter calibration - Measuring head (on pic.) problem General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 1
F How many signatures do we need on calibration certificates? ISO 17025 related Discussions 8
V Calibration certificate verification Qualification and Validation (including 21 CFR Part 11) 3
F Online courses - Metrology, standardization, calibration and ISO 17025 Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 3
A Calibration Certificate Results General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 3
K ISO 17025:2017 clause 7.6.2 - Performing calibration of its own equipment shall evaluate the measurement uncertainty ISO 17025 related Discussions 6
G Third party auditor mentions no grace period for calibration Calibration Frequency (Interval) 22
E Calibration Certificate Content Requirements General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 3
Casana IATF 16949 7.1.5.3.2 External Laboratory - On Site Calibration IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 8
Nicole Desouza AS9100D - Calibration of Dies & Tooling - Plastic Extrusion AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 4
D Determining Calibration Frequency schedule for items used in production Manufacturing and Related Processes 2
WEAVER Electronic Weighing Scale Calibration Tolerance Manufacturing and Related Processes 1

Similar threads

Top Bottom