Can a Camera be used by the Auditor ?

J

Jason PCSwitches

#21
[FONT=&quot]It's not a matter of "preference" it's a matter of legality. Organizations should have facility regulations & have them documented. For example, the last time you went to a concert didn't they tell you cameras and video recorders are not allowed? Did you listen? Have you tried to take a bottle of shampoo in your carry on pre-flight to Europe, not so much!!

Unless it is stated & documented in company policy, they have every right to bring in recording devices. While that may not sit well with most, it’s legally sound.

You also need to review the contract that was signed with the registrar or customer. Does it reference or make exceptions to recording devices?

In cases where security clearance or other aspects of such are involved in business, it is clearly stated in the T's & C's.[/FONT]
 
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ScottK

Not out of the crisis
Staff member
Super Moderator
#22
Let's differentiate between "Audit" and "Inspection"

For an audit I would say "no way", confidentiality agreements or not.
For an inspection, which usually implies a regulatory agency, I don't think you can avoid it.
 

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#23
[FONT=&quot]It's not a matter of "preference" it's a matter of legality. Organizations should have facility regulations & have them documented. For example, the last time you went to a concert didn't they tell you cameras and video recorders are not allowed? Did you listen? Have you tried to take a bottle of shampoo in your carry on pre-flight to Europe, not so much!!
There are many other threads here where we discuss whether there is a need for a policy or procedure to be documented or not.

While I can see it may sometimes help for things to be documented in areas like 'preference' me simply saying - "Actually I'd rather you didn't take pictures" is enough. I understand the issues of copyright and anti terror law you are making - I just don't think they are relevant in this case. If someone wants to take a picture of my company property or employees they can ask my permission.

Unless it is stated & documented in company policy, they have every right to bring in recording devices. While that may not sit well with most, it’s legally sound.
Again I am happy for people to bring recording devices onto my sites (particularly in this day and age with mobile phones) but I am equally as keen they do not use them - and will tell them so if they try to record voice, picture or video - for the reasons I have already posted. :)


You also need to review the contract that was signed with the registrar or customer. Does it reference or make exceptions to recording devices?
Thanks for the advice. I am guessing this is not referenced in any certification contract and, whether it is or it isn't, I will ask a 3rd party auditor to 'cease and desist' and deal with the legalities afterwards.


In cases where security clearance or other aspects of such are involved in business, it is clearly stated in the T's & C's.[/FONT]
Point taken. This is normally to clearly state any recording is not permitted.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#24
Digital media is obviously very meaningful OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE. A picture is worth a million words, a video clip is worth a billion words.

The visual impact can not be underestimated, especially when the situation is egregious, such as the video clip available in this post.

Most definitely, external auditors must attain the consent from the auditees, before they start capturing sensitive information in pictures, audio recording and/or video clips.
 
J

Jason PCSwitches

#25
There are many other threads here where we discuss whether there is a need for a policy or procedure to be documented or not.
Boris, I'm not sure where you are coming from with your comments but I think we are on the same page.

Point #1 - This is a "legal" matter not necessarily, though relative, to ISO or standards in general (with exceptions). While it can be tied to the respective standard, organizations do have policies/restrictions that are not necessarily tied to ISO, or a particular standard. For example in most organizations finance is not included in the scope of an audit, but they still have policies & practices that they apply to the process, yet its deemed in-auditable by the organization for confidentiality reasons, understandably, especially for small businesses.


Point # 2 -

Sydney’s' statement about consistence is spot on. Generally if an external body has any right to record media they will ascertain proper authorization prior to doing so. However, that's not the heart of this debate, it's whether or not there is a right.

However:

(I'm playing Devils advocate, not trying to entice) if I came into your organization and started to take media records what can you back up that statement with if it went to upper management?


Point # 3 - Not all, most the industry are starting to adapt to the "media age". Organizations are starting to include media requirements in privacy rights. Again, It might not be, but should be, tied to their respective QMS.
 
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Ninja

Looking for Reality
Staff member
Super Moderator
#26
Labels on packages are public knowledge already anyway.
I didn't figure my first post on the forum would be in disagreement with something, but we've fought this battle already and feel strongly about it.

Labels on packages are knowledge to the carrier and people who happen to see it in transit...but not "public". It's a matter of low probability as to who sees it.

Most of my customers have no idea who my other customers are...and this is a very, very good thing. One of my more valuable customers would probably be accomodated if they wanted to see our audit report, and I sure wouldn't want my "hide other customer references" work prior to their visit to be undone by pictures in the report. We wouldn't hide stuff from the CB rep, but if a camera was coming through...that thinking may change.
We would be hard pressed to allow use of a camera by the auditor unless a VERY good case was made.

My thinking anyway...no :evidence: allowed.
 
J

Jason PCSwitches

#27
I didn't figure my first post on the forum would be in disagreement with something, but we've fought this battle already and feel strongly about it.

Labels on packages are knowledge to the carrier and people who happen to see it in transit...but not "public". It's a matter of low probability as to who sees it.

Most of my customers have no idea who my other customers are...and this is a very, very good thing. One of my more valuable customers would probably be accomodated if they wanted to see our audit report, and I sure wouldn't want my "hide other customer references" work prior to their visit to be undone by pictures in the report. We wouldn't hide stuff from the CB rep, but if a camera was coming through...that thinking may change.
We would be hard pressed to allow use of a camera by the auditor unless a VERY good case was made.

My thinking anyway...no :evidence: allowed.
[FONT=&quot]Then include that in the appropriate SOP for your organization and you have nothing to worry about. That's my point; the organization should ensure its @$$ is covered. Again not necessarily the responsibility if the QMS in this regards, just good, smart business.[/FONT]
 
M

Mauri

#28
I totally agree with where you are coming from Ninja.

I didn't clarify exactly what labels I meant. I was thinking regulatory labels that have to be placed on products, such as medical devices or ingredient labels on packaged product, etc.

I agree with Scottk on audit vs. inspection.

Our visitor's policy states that there are no cameras or recording devices allowed unless approved by management.
 

Ninja

Looking for Reality
Staff member
Super Moderator
#29
Wasn't disagreeing with you Jason, I think that your point is well made and accurate. I was simply highlighting that there is more at stake than simply internal paperwork...even the labels for containers things come in and the containers product leaves in are in play.

For best protecting whatever position you choose to take, document it as company policy. I agree.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#30
OK guys, all good points, but I know for sure that if I would show up with a recording device of any kind, I can wave the cooperation and goodwill from the auditees good bye!!

There may be all good reasons why technology can and could be an advantage for an audit but auditing is still for 80% a people-cooperation dependent process.

Trust me, fear is still rampant...

Stijloor.
 
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