Can a Camera be used by the Auditor ?

ScottK

Not out of the crisis
Staff member
Super Moderator
#31
Wasn't disagreeing with you Jason, I think that your point is well made and accurate. I was simply highlighting that there is more at stake than simply internal paperwork...even the labels for containers things come in and the containers product leaves in are in play.

For best protecting whatever position you choose to take, document it as company policy. I agree.
:topic: Welcome to the Cove, my brother. Glad to see you jumping right in.
 
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A

alspread

#32
There is a really sweet free app for the iPhone called Genius Scan. I use it mostly for photos of receipts for expense reports.

However, (based on this post) I just used it to take a picture of supporting documentation and attached the "photos" to the audit report without having to chase down a copier or write all of the reference numbers. It really worked pretty slick. The app automatically crops the image to a rectangle for the document and saves it as a PDF. You can save multiple images (PDF's) under a single or multiple files to attach to your audit report or email or whatever.

Of course this was an internal audit for a client and not an official certification audit and the client permitted me to use this approach.

In the future I am going to ask if I can use the photo approach for collecting images of supporting documentation and if the auditee allows it, I'm going to use this method.

It really is slick, if the client/auditee doesn't object.

Good luck.
 
J

Jason PCSwitches

#33
Wasn't disagreeing with you Jason, I think that your point is well made and accurate. I was simply highlighting that there is more at stake than simply internal paperwork...even the labels for containers things come in and the containers product leaves in are in play.

For best protecting whatever position you choose to take, document it as company policy. I agree.

[FONT=&quot]I get ya. My point was that the intent of things compared to application & responsibility are different animals. I've dealt with clients that only see gray and they usually end up in the red.

BTW-As ScottK said, welcome, good discussion.[/FONT]
 
J

JaneB

#35
No argument that the use of a camera/application instead of photocopying can be useful.
But there are some key provisos that I've highlighted in what you said:
Of course this was an internal audit for a client and not an official certification audit and the client permitted me to use this approach.
 

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#36
I was going to let this one lie but as you've come back to me directly (and still nicely! :))
Boris, I'm not sure where you are coming from with your comments but I think we are on the same page.
My post was in reply to your statement:
[FONT=&quot]It's not a matter of "preference" it's a matter of legality. <snip> .....

Unless it is stated & documented in company policy, they have every right to bring in recording devices. While that may not sit well with most, it’s legally sound. <snip>
Hence my reference to documented policies and procedures that I say are irrelevant in this matter.

Point #1 - This is a "legal" matter not necessarily, though relative, to ISO or standards in general (with exceptions). While it can be tied to the respective standard, organizations do have policies/restrictions that are not necessarily tied to ISO, or a particular standard. For example in most organizations finance is not included in the scope of an audit, but they still have policies & practices that they apply to the process, yet its deemed in-auditable by the organization for confidentiality reasons, understandably, especially for small businesses.
I agree that it has nothing to do with ISO standards exept we seem to have narrowed the debate down to 2nd and 3rd party audits - typically against one of the ISO standards. I don't understand your reference to finance systems and how they help this discussion. I realize they have policies and procedures, what we are talking about is a practice (media recording) that generally is not covered by policy or a procedure (but sometimes is for companies that want to document their security policy).


Point # 2 -

Sydney’s' statement about consistence is spot on. Generally if an external body has any right to record media they will ascertain proper authorization prior to doing so. However, that's not the heart of this debate, it's whether or not there is a right.
As ever, Sydney is spot on. The value of recorded media as objective evidence is not questioned. My point is that 2nd and 3rd party auditors should not expect to be able to use it and, in any case, they have sufficient powers to record findings without shoving pictures or videos into an embarrassed auditee's face.

However:

(I'm playing Devils advocate, not trying to entice) if I came into your organization and started to take media records what can you back up that statement with if it went to upper management?
This would not be an issue because you wouldn't be allowed to record media on our sites so it wouldn't need backing up with the rest of my senior management team.


Point # 3 - Not all, most the industry are starting to adapt to the "media age". Organizations are starting to include media requirements in privacy rights. Again, It might not be, but should be, tied to their respective QMS.
I am not a Luddite here. I can see the value of recordings in internal audit and (at a push) in regulatory audits but I will not accept a 2nd or 3rd party auditor recording their evidence on my site. It is not a question of copyright but of protecting my company's image and reputation.
 
#37
OK guys, all good points, but I know for sure that if I would show up with a recording device of any kind, I can wave the cooperation and goodwill from the auditees good bye!!

There may be all good reasons why technology can and could be an advantage for an audit but auditing is still for 80% a people-cooperation dependent process.

Trust me, fear is still rampant...

Stijloor.
Those tv bytes you see of the Feds taking away boxes of 'evidence' from a supposed 'crime scene' (as in the case of the suspicious scientist at the Sandia Labs a few years ago) always comes to mind when I read about auditors wanting to take pictures or photocopy 'evidence'.
Do as Jan says, take good notes. It works for most good auditors...
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#38
It works for most good auditors...
Many of us were taught auditing techniques when digital media was not easily acquired. We must (in my opinion) be open to use technology in order to enhance and improve the auditing profession and audit effectiveness, as well.

If auditing is perceived as a adversarial/confrontational activity, auditees will be concerned with anything the auditors see, read, listen to, etc.; even the handwritten notes are concerning, just like a thorough audit report is. To mitigate that, confidentiality clauses are in place

But (and I've seen it myself), during a closing meeting, debriefing audit results to top management with images of the concerning areas, brings an impact and engagement, impossible to accomplish with words alone.

I don't see why auditing should be refractory to technology.
 
Last edited:
D

dv8shane

#39
Perhaps someone have signed not reading the fine print in the agreement.
Unless some one has signed off on the use of photographs, video media etc I would challenge this. It could also possibly be an invasion of privacy if individuals are photographed without consent.
 

Ajit Basrur

Staff member
Admin
#40
Sideny has a very valid point. I havent seen many external auditors use or seek permission for use of cameras but our internal audit use cameras for better understanding the situation.

Esp for me, a non Chinese, and to present facts to Chinese people, "Pictures speak a thousand words" :)
 
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