Can a external auditor raise a finding that is already identified in Internal Audit ?

[Richard W]

Hi There

I have recently started a new role - but not new to QM

I am going through some observations from a previous audit and one agree with a NC I raised in a internal audit. "We have no measure in place for capturing customer satisfaction.

My understanding is that because I have raised it - it will be on the NC register - so can the external auditor also raise it? - and in this case raise it to a NC as it was already an observation.

I thought the general rule was if I have already identified it, he can not raise it - but is this blurred as he already raised it at a previous audit (when I was not working here?)

Thanks

Richard

 

[John Broomfield]

Re: Internal Audit NC means exteral auditor can not raise it?

Hi There

I have recently started a new role - but not new to QM

I am going through some observations from a previous audit and one agree with a NC I raised in a internal audit. "We have no measure in place for capturing customer satisfaction.

My understanding is that because I have raised it - it will be on the NC register - so can the external auditor also raise it? - and in this case raise it to a NC as it was already an observation.

I thought the general rule was if I have already identified it, he can not raise it - but is this blurred as he already raised it at a previous audit (when I was not working here?)

Thanks

Richard

Richard,

What you say works in theory. Just make sure your corrective action is making good progress.

However, papering over the cracks in your system with your own CARs to fend-off second and third party auditors is unlikely to work.

John

 

[dsanabria]

Re: Internal Audit NC means exteral auditor can not raise it?

Hi There

I have recently started a new role - but not new to QM

I am going through some observations from a previous audit and one agree with a NC I raised in a internal audit. "We have no measure in place for capturing customer satisfaction.

My understanding is that because I have raised it - it will be on the NC register - so can the external auditor also raise it? - and in this case raise it to a NC as it was already an observation.

I thought the general rule was if I have already identified it, he can not raise it - but is this blurred as he already raised it at a previous audit (when I was not working here?)

Thanks

Richard

Your general rule is outdated.

The new thinking is that if the auditor found that the requirements to the standard were not met - auditors must write them up.

Your point is well taken that you are working on it... but a bigger question is raised, why did you not take care of it so the auditor would not find it? ...

For future reference - each auditor has different views on this subject and you met one that follows procedures and requirements and this finding can not be appealed or if you do, very unlikely that it will go your way.

 

[Richard W]

Re: Internal Audit NC means exteral auditor can not raise it?

Richard,

What you say works in theory. Just make sure your corrective action is making good progress.

However, papering over the cracks in your system with your own CARs to fend-off second and third party auditors is unlikely to work.

John

Yes I agree - and that is not my intention. I think it is a fairer reflection on reality to be able to show that I too have picked up the numerous issues, they are captured and are being worked on. It is simply because I have inherited the system and am probably seeing the issues with a fresh pair of eyes

 

[Richard W]

Re: Internal Audit NC means exteral auditor can not raise it?

Your general rule is outdated.

but a bigger question is raised, why did you not take care of it so the auditor would not find it? ...
thanks

simply because I have just identified it - its a big piece of work but am able to show plan and work done so far (we still have no measure)

I have been in the role 6 weeks so not am worried about getting a number of NCs - as this will help me over the coming months

 

[dsanabria]

Re: Internal Audit NC means exteral auditor can not raise it?

Your general rule is outdated.

but a bigger question is raised, why did you not take care of it so the auditor would not find it? ...
thanks

simply because I have just identified it - its a big piece of work but am able to show plan and work done so far (we still have no measure)

I have been in the role 6 weeks so not am worried about getting a number of NCs - as this will help me over the coming months

Sounds like you have a grasp on the issues and yes, chances are that the auditor just scratched the surface so you have some work to do.

Make sure you do a good root cause and more important - get top management behind you with full support.

The journey will be smoother.

 

[Randy]

Re: Internal Audit NC means exteral auditor can not raise it?

Normally if y'all are addressing it a 3rd party guy, like me, will just use that as evidence that the system is working, but as stated, if you have a sorry corrective action process most likely the original NC will be left alone and you'll get an NC for a sorry CA process (ineffective)

 

[Big Jim]

Re: Internal Audit NC means exteral auditor can not raise it?

As you can see, it varies with the auditor. Some will not "double dip", others feel that they are required to write up any nonconformance.

Their are a few other considerations here.

I understand that if it is a registration audit, registration cannot be completed if their are any outstanding nonconformances so in that case they need to be identified during the registration audit. An action plan for resolution sometime in the future is not acceptable on a registration audit although it can be used on surveillance and re-registration audits. I think this may come from 17021, the standard that controls 9001 audits.

The use of the term observation they way used in this thread is disturbing. If a nonconformance is identified, it needs to be written as a nonconformance. It is inappropriate to "soft grade" it down to an observation. Calling a nonconformance an observation invites an inadequate response.

 

[John Broomfield]

Re: Internal Audit NC means exteral auditor can not raise it?

Yes I agree - and that is not my intention. I think it is a fairer reflection on reality to be able to show that I too have picked up the numerous issues, they are captured and are being worked on. It is simply because I have inherited the system and am probably seeing the issues with a fresh pair of eyes

Richard,

Also, watch out for a system integrity problem (see 5.4.2b) after prolonged neglect and engage top management on planning and getting their management system where it needs to be.

John

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Re: Can a external auditor raise a finding that is already identified in Internal Aud

I thought the general rule was if I have already identified it, he can not raise it - but is this blurred as he already raised it at a previous audit (when I was not working here?)

There are several threads discussing the same subject. The best one in my estimation is the one @ Should a Registrar write a NC on something that was found during the Internal Audit? but you can also look at the following:

Can An External Auditor Also Write The Same Non-Conformance As An Internal Auditor?

Internal Audit Corrective Actions - Can a CB write an NC on an in-process CA?

External Auditor Findings when an Internal Audit found a Nonconformance Yesterday

The question that I posed a few times and was never rebutted appropriately is: if you are working on a corrective action already for the internally triggered nonconformity, what is the harm for the external auditor to capture the same issue?