Can a Fabless Semiconductor Company achieve TS16949 Certification (Registration)?

tapster

Registered
Re: Can a Fabless Semiconductor Company acheive TS16949 Certification (Registration)?

Or,

In the case of ASIC's. These can be configured on the final test hardware and thus making test, under certain conditions, a value adding process.

???

Nathan
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Leader
Admin
Again, my question here is if I'm a testing house for a automotive customer, can I be certified? If not, then I think it is time I should fire the TS/ISO consultant.
thks.
jeffrey.
What I posted in my previous thread was the ruling available at the IAOB website. Which is the OFFICIAL ruling. My INTERPRETATION of that ruling leads me to believe that a testing house is not eligible for TS certification because it is not a MANUFACTURING site.
The eligibility aspect for companies to be certified to TS-16949 has been enhanced, compared to the QS-9000 because there were stupid abuses, as the case of a Montessori-school somewhere in Asia, certified to QS-9000. There were other infamous cases of mis-application. Interesting, most of the accounts that I heard were in Asia.
Some misinformed consultants and organizations think that, if being certified to ISO 9001 is a good marketing ploy, being certified to QS-9000, TS-16949 or AS9100 is EVEN better... :mad:
 
V

vanputten

Re: Can a Fabless Semiconductor Company acheive TS16949 Certification (Registration)?

Anybody willing to explain how outsourcing fits into this thread and why outsourced *manufacturing* is outside the scope of TS certification?

With an outsourced *manufacturing* process, the outsourcing organization is still responsible for the inputs, outputs, product, etc., etc.

Per 4.1, the organization still has to ensure control over the outsourced process. The organization must identify, in their QMS, the control of the outsourced process.

It just doen't make sense that we have this sort of advanced requirement where controlling the outsourced process is required. It forces us to think about the scope / definition of our system.

But if there is not *manufacturing* onsite, then no TS certificate? The idea of onsite manufacturing seems sort of old school with current organizational structures.

Regards,

Dirk
 
J

jeffrey_Chang

Re: Can a Fabless Semiconductor Company acheive TS16949 Certification (Registration)?

As I understand it the production test is an inspection gate.

Therefore an NVA process (much like in line QA inspections) as we are inspecting and rejecting product defects introduced by the manufactuiring process.

According to TS this cannot be adding value (even though it classes as a finishing service) therefore TS certification on the back of a test servide is not possible.

Am I missing something?

Thanks,

Nathan

Hi Nathan,
I asked myself this question, if I'm to remove away the final test from the IC manufacturing processes, would it impact the customer?
Yes, it will as there's no way I could validate that the product is functioning to its design intent and hence if it impacts
the customer, I would classify it as a value added service.

a testing house is not eligible for TS certification because it is not a MANUFACTURING site.

Hi Sidney,

If a testing house is providing value added services, should it be consider as a MANUFACTURING SITE?

4. 3.1.11 "Site"
- Location at which value added manufacturing processes occur.
5. “Manufacturing”
- Process of making or fabricating:
· Production materials
· Production or service parts
· Assemblies, or
· Heat treating, welding, painting, plating, or other finishing services


Anybody willing to explain how outsourcing fits into this thread and why outsourced *manufacturing* is outside the scope of TS certification?

Per 4.1, the organization still has to ensure control over the outsourced process. The organization must identify, in their QMS, the control of the outsourced process.

But if there is not *manufacturing* onsite, then no TS certificate?
Regards,

Dirk

Hi Dirk,
Personally, I would consider an outsource process as an extension arm of the manufacturing processes and therefore, it should be considered as part of the manufacturing site.

Is there a clause specifying that there must be manufacturing "ONSITE", then you can get TS certified? I don't remembered reading anything about "ONSITE" from the extract that Sidney had posted previously.

Well, anyway, to me TS is not about getting a certification although it might be a customer requirement but more about improving the overall efficiency and effectiveness of the manufacturing processes.

thks.
jeffrey.
 

Jim Wynne

Leader
Admin
Re: Can a Fabless Semiconductor Company acheive TS16949 Certification (Registration)?

It's appalling that we have important standards that no one knows how to decipher, even given the help of the people who produced them. We're reduced to the pitiable level of thrashing about, trying to squeeze meaning into the word "manufacturing" that doesn't fit.

What the heck does "value added" mean in this context? No one seems to know. Is there a time when "manufacturing" is not a "value added" process? Is it the intent of the standard to define inspection (testing) as a "value added" process?

The problem seems to be that the authors of the standard failed to take all of the possibilities (such as fabless semiconducter companies) into account in their ill-fated attempt to limit the population of eligible companies. Vanputten asks in this thread,
Anybody willing to explain how outsourcing fits into this thread and why outsourced *manufacturing* is outside the scope of TS
It's a good question, and it seems that the problem is that there is outsourcing, and then there's outsourcing. It's one thing to send a machined part out to get plated, and quite another to outsource all manufacturing processes, and act as a sort of ringmaster to a circus of outsourced processes.
 

tony s

Information Seeker
Trusted Information Resource
Re: Can a Fabless Semiconductor Company acheive TS16949 Certification (Registration)?

We have the same issue here.

Prior to initiating the TS 16949 project with my client, I, together with my client's representative, consulted their eligibility to at least two registrars that have IATF accreditation. Both CBs, after carefully evaluating my client's condition, agreed that we are eligible. With that, we embarked on the TS project.

In the middle of our preparation, one of the CB began to have second thoughts and afterward took back their position about our eligibility. We tried to ask the remaining IATF accredited CBs (we only have 6 here) to provide clarification but it turned out that they have different positions - two said we're eligible the other two voted we're not.

So our eligibility status is in a standoff. To make it worse, the customer who required my client's certification to TS is also having a problem with regard to their own eligibility and may face decertification.

My client subcontracts IC burn-in / stressing process from an American IC testing company.

Originally Posted by jeffrey_Chang


Again, my question here is if I'm a testing house for a automotive customer, can I be certified? If not, then I think it is time I should fire the TS/ISO consultant.
thks.
jeffrey.

Do what you have to do. I don't believe your consultant is comfortable with this kind of predicament.
 

tapster

Registered
Re: Can a Fabless Semiconductor Company acheive TS16949 Certification (Registration)?

Hello All,

Many thanks for all your inputs. It's given me plenty to think about.

I've crawled all over the specs (TS and ISO), various FAQ's, SI's, guidance modules (particularly N630 - Guidance on outsourced processes) and various posts on this forum.

I've come to the following conclusions:

1 - Test is not TS certifiable as it is an inspection, not a manufacturing, process - unless some form of finishing is involved i.e. fuse burning in an ASIC

2 - An organisation that permanently outsources processes to third-party suppliers can be certified.

The circle I'm now trying to square is:

Can a site without ANY manufacturing onsite obtain TS certification if all manufacturing is outsourced and complies with clause 4.1?

Or does the site have to have a minimum manufacturing capability?

It's not clear from the literature whether a site without a manufacturing process, but with suitable outsourcing controls in place, can be TS certified?

Thanks,

Nathan
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
Re: Can a Fabless Semiconductor Company acheive TS16949 Certification (Registration)?

...

2 - An organisation that permanently outsources processes to third-party suppliers can be certified.

The circle I'm now trying to square is:

Can a site without ANY manufacturing onsite obtain TS certification if all manufacturing is outsourced and complies with clause 4.1?

Or does the site have to have a minimum manufacturing capability?

It's not clear from the literature whether a site without a manufacturing process, but with suitable outsourcing controls in place, can be TS certified?

Thanks,

Nathan


Wow, that is certainly a finely parsed question.

On the simple surface, the obvious answer would appear to be "no," because you don't "manufacture." However, outsourced processes are attributed to your manufacturing processes, because you have to define whatever controls you apply to them.

I don't have a definitive answer, nor have I ever heard one. This probably will have to get a ruling from IAOB. I have a hunch they will weigh in aganst it, leaving only ISO 9001 as an option.

But, why not try for it? Do you have an automotive customer requesting it? Ask a few registrars what they think. I would predict some will say no, some will agree to pursue it. But, ultimately, I think IAOB will have to decide it.
 
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vanputten

Re: Can a Fabless Semiconductor Company acheive TS16949 Certification (Registration)?

Hello Nathan:

Thank you for the very well written posting. Just excellent.

Sincerely,

Dirk
 
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dlsquality

Re: Can a Fabless Semiconductor Company acheive TS16949 Certification (Registration)?

I know of one fabless semiconductor company that is ISO/TS 16949 certified but I don't think I'm allowed to post their name in this forum.
 
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