Can a registrar recommend with minor non-conformities closed before end of audit?

soulmas

Involved In Discussions
#1
I would like to know who's right.. some registrars are not recomending companies if they have a minon-nonconformity and it was closed during the audit. Registrar waits at least a week in order to close the audit. However, other registrars close the non-conformities and recommend the organization.

In the rules for achieving IATF recognition, on page 15 explains the following:
" the auditor shall record all nonconformities identified on the audit report even if the corrective action is implemented immediately"

On page 16 continues:

" for each nonconformity the organization shall perform a root cause analysis and define corresponding corrective actions to be implemented as soon as possible, in any case withing three monhs from the end of the site visit. The organization will inform the audit team of corrective actinos and target date for implementation. "

So, the registrar can or can not recommend an organization with minor non-conformities even if the corrective action was implemented immediately?

regards,
Soulma
 
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The Taz!

Quite Involved in Discussions
#2
IMHO, This is not a good situation . . . I have been a part of certification audits where non-conformities were found and documented on the 1st day of the audit. Correction was implemented by the next day, and the auditor signed-off on the items as complete. We got the Cert on the first shot.

This was a QS-9000 audit. The auditor was with what I consider a middle of the road registrar. . .not anal. . .and not lax.

I believe that it is up to the auditor and registrar. I do not know what their internal procedures or requirements are. There is variation in their processes even though they play by the same rules.

Hope you can work it out. . . and I hope you don't get the blame
 
T

tomvehoski

#3
If you have closed out the corrective action, there is no longer a nonconformity, therefore they can go ahead with the recommendation. It does not matter if it was done in five minutes, days or weeks. I have done this in many instances, usually simple document fixes, missing signature, etc. As long as the auditor signs off on your CA, no problem. Some registrars will even allow a recommendation to proceed with open minors - this is only possible under ISO 9001, not TS or QS.

Tom
 

soulmas

Involved In Discussions
#4
Thankyou for your replies... like Tom said, as long as the auditor signs off the CA, no problem. For ISO9000 or QS9000 I had no problem at all... but now, with ISO/TS, I've seen those two different situations... company where I work will change registrars and some of them are telling us they do not allow to close the non-conformities (if minors) during the audit... we had a situation where the facility had one, they did corrective action and the auditor accept it, but he said he wants the evidence in a week.. the evidence was ready.. but he said that even he was OK with the corrective actions, he couldn't close it because in TS the rules changed, he had to wait at least a week in order to change the TS status report from Open to recommended. Could you believe it?

- Soulma
 
S
#5
Soulmas,
Continue reading through clause 5 of the flow diagram. I think this will answer your question.
 

bpritts

Involved - Posts
#6
Looking at the TS "Automotive Certification Scheme" Rules for recognition,
I didn't see anything prohibiting immediate closure of an N.C.

I can offer 2 specific examples from the past, both at least a few years ago:

NSF - was willing & able to close NC's on site and issue a recommendation
at the end of a certification audit

Entela - stated that their internal procedures did not allow this. Justification
was that they wanted to avoid the risk of a time-pressured, thin corrective
action.

Note that NSF insisted that the NC/CAR had to be reviewed outside of the
audit timeschedule (i.e. lunch or overtime) so as not to burn audit time.

To me this is a judgement call by the registrar rather than a IATF, RAB, or
other accreditator requirement.

From a motivational point of view I like NSF's approach better but I must concede that Entela's concern is not without merit.

Regards,

Brad
 
T

tomvehoski

#7
I agree with Brad that it is registrar specific and I don't recall seeing an actual rule about it with TS. NSF and AQSR have both closed them for my clients during the audit process - I'm not sure how anyone would know if it was at lunch or during "audit time". I have had some auditors say they will not close them the same day - I think this is often their personal preference/viewpoint. I tend to agree you can get some poor CA if done in a day - I would rarely, if ever, allow CA, PA, implementation and verification to be done the same day for internal CARs. I normally only attempted same day closure for very simple issues.

Tom
 

The Taz!

Quite Involved in Discussions
#8
tomvehoski said:
I agree with Brad that it is registrar specific and I don't recall seeing an actual rule about it with TS. NSF and AQSR have both closed them for my clients during the audit process - I'm not sure how anyone would know if it was at lunch or during "audit time". I have had some auditors say they will not close them the same day - I think this is often their personal preference/viewpoint. I tend to agree you can get some poor CA if done in a day - I would rarely, if ever, allow CA, PA, implementation and verification to be done the same day for internal CARs. I normally only attempted same day closure for very simple issues.

Tom

Brad and Tom. . .

I agree with your thoughts. . . I think the key is really the nature of the nonconformity. Some are merely an OOPS! on the part of the audited company. . . and some are more in-depth. . . such as Internal Audit CAR's not being "closed without undue delay".

As the auditor, I wouldn't close the CAR either if that is something I found and the company rushed to close them that day.

On the other hand, if I found a bad reference in a procedure, or a simple ommission that was corrected on the spot with no real impact on the QMS, I'd close the CAR.
 
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