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Can auditors freely conduct confidential interviews, or consent is necessary?

M

Markaich

#11
Re: Can auditors freely conduct confidential interviews, or consent it necessary?

I have undertaken audits in the past where part of the objective was to gather perception data relating to things like the effectiveness of the system, openness of management, visibility of management etc.

Any attempt to collect this information with a member of management or an official company representative present would be unlikely to be successful; infact even contemporaries can inhibit the free flow of perceptions.

I undertook these audits both internally and supporting our external auditors, and it was recognised by management & unions as a neccessary part of gaining the award.

So, in an ISO style audit, no...it's unlikely that this would happen. ISO auditors like to think they are collecting objective evidence that does not rely on people (this is not the place for a philosophical discussion on objectivism and constructivism, but hopefully you know what I mean). There are other awards however that try to take account of staff perfception of the systems.

Hope this helps
M
 
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Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
#12
Re: Can auditors freely conduct confidential interviews, or consent it necessary?

I’m afraid as I don’t have a scenario at this point. I'm just curious on the possible resolution if the company didn't agree that the auditors to conduct confidential interviews with employees who are chosen freely by the auditors without any influence of the company or department or process owner. The refusal could apply to access of confidential documents as well.

It will be interesting if someone could present a scenario on this topic.
Why on earth would you ask the question in the first place? You might as well ask if it is OK for the auditor to have intimate relations with a worker. I suppose it "could" happen, but only a cad would disclose the fact. If I learned it happened between an auditor and a worker on my watch, I'm pretty sure I could find cause to have both terminated from employment.

Every individual and organization has an absolute right to keep secrets and, except in the case of duly authorized government workers armed with a court order, to deny ANYONE access to those secrets. A "nondisclosure agreement" is a privilege to be offered by the secret holder, not a right to be demanded by any outsider.
 
J

JaneB

#13
Re: Can auditors freely conduct confidential interviews, or consent it necessary?

Good point, Wes. I agree.
Every individual and organization has an absolute right to keep secrets and, except in the case of duly authorized government workers armed with a court order, to deny ANYONE access to those secrets. A "nondisclosure agreement" is a privilege to be offered by the secret holder, not a right to be demanded by any outsider.
I have both done audits and observed external audits where there was certain information that the organisation chose to keep entirely confidential to itself.

There's almost always some way around that desire, meaning, not to circumvent it, but to achieve a win/win situation. The auditor explains what they're looking to see, and together with the organisation and its authorised representative(s), you agree on what can be shown. At times, I or the other auditors have only been permitted to see parts of a document (eg, with paper or a hand held over the parts to remain confidential). Or to look at the records for this case and that case, but not the other one.

But re. the topic, I have to query the value of discussion on a purely theoretical scenario. that has not happened to you, and when you're trying to make up a wholly fictional 'what if'. I'd much rather talk real scenarios than purely hypotheticals.

As for the possibility of taking some employee into a room by oneself, and not letting anyone hear or know what was said... never. I'd never either ask for that, nor consent to it.
I can't think of a better recipe for disaster.
 
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Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#14
Re: Can auditors freely conduct confidential interviews, or consent it necessary?

Why on earth would you ask the question in the first place? You might as well ask if it is OK for the auditor to have intimate relations with a worker. I suppose it "could" happen, but only a cad would disclose the fact. If I learned it happened between an auditor and a worker on my watch, I'm pretty sure I could find cause to have both terminated from employment. <snip>
1. He asked because he is curious, Wes. Read his post. Is there something wrong with someone who is curious asking a question?
2. Relating this to "intimate relations with a co-worker" is just adding a straw man which is not applicable to audits and auditing and you know it.

This is a decent thread as I look back over the years when I was "in the game". There were many times confidentiality came up in one way or another. Usually it had to do with documents or records. I have seen auditors who wanted to review an employee's entire personnel file. The auditor used 2 points of attack: 1. He wanted training records and any school transcripts of the employee, and 2. His justification was he had signed a confidentiality agreement so it didn't matter what he saw because the confidentiality agreement "protects the company" from his disclosing anything. He was shown internal training records and copies of certifications/degrees. Viewing school transcript was denied.

As to a confidential interview with a specific employee - I have never seen that asked for *other* than quite a few times with top management. I have seen confidential interviews with top management requested by the top management person/people so that's not new to me. I have seen an auditor ask to speak with a plant manager alone and it was rejected. I would classify "Auditor Requests a Confidential Interview" as extremely rare. Other than top management I have never seen an auditor request a "confidential" interview.

Long ago I put together a "Auditee and Audit Escort Training" document which I used with implementation clients. I initially developed it around 1994. The attached is a basic "generic" version from around 2003.
 

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J

JaneB

#15
Re: Can auditors freely conduct confidential interviews, or consent it necessary?

Good point about confidential interview with a senior manager, Marc. I forgot about that one.

Your example about auditors not being allowed to review an employee's entire file is a good example of the sort of thing I also was thinking about. An auditor doesn't have the right to do that.

And yes, I've seen one trying to do it also, and given the same response. I suspect he was actually trying to satisfy some curiosity about how much that particular employee was paid and quite rightly this information was withheld as it had nothing to do with the audit.) the sorta
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#16
Re: Can auditors freely conduct confidential interviews, or consent it necessary?

:topic: Since you have decided to take this "Off Topic", I feel I should respond.
<snip> But re. the topic, I have to query the value of discussion on a purely theoretical scenario. that has not happened to you, and when you're trying to make up a wholly fictional 'what if'. I'd much rather talk real scenarios than purely hypotheticals. <snip>
That's fine, Jane, but there are people who are curious about hypothetical scenarios and if you look through threads here you will see there are many threads over the years wherein people ask "what if". I have never before seen you post such a comment in any other thread that you do not think it was appropriate because it's a "What If..." topic. If you prefer not to be involved in hypothetical scenario threads you have the option not to participate in them.

You personally may never ask "What if" but many of us do. I hope you are not into any type of risk analysis because "What If...." is very important in many aspects of a business.

Wikipedia reference-linkDisaster_recovery

Some standards such as TS 16949 *require* "What If..." for aspects such as disaster plans. How could you do a disaster plan without asking "What If..."? How could you do an FMEA without asking "What If..."? My bet is when you are with your clients you ask a few "What if..." questions now and again. I know I always had "What if..." questions from time to time when I did implementations. My Credentials: I have done implementations of various standards at the likes of Motorola, Borg-Warner, and Harley-Davidson (to name a few of the larger companies I have worked with) so I certainly am not a novice.

Even in production planning, a good production manager asks "What If..." so s/he is prepared for scenarios such as catastrophic equipment failure, extreme weather where employees may not be able to get to work - There are many other examples if you think about it a bit. Heck - I do "What If..." stuff in my every day life, especially when doing things like my budget planning. I recently did a "What If..." with regard to a sycamore tree in my yard which is probably 60+ feet tall. High winds and my house could be toast (not to mention me if it fell just right and hit where I was in the house at the time). I called a certified arborist 2 weeks ago to evaluate it and he and I sat there and there were a lot of "What if..." questions I had. This also led to a lot of "What If..." questions in a followup with my home insurance agent and a discussion of my policy and coverage.

<snip> As for the possibility of taking some employee into a room by oneself, and not letting anyone hear or know what was said... never. I'd never either ask for that, nor consent to it.
I can't think of a better recipe for disaster.
I think we all know that is true as a general rule, but as I said in my previous post, I've seen it done with top management. I've seen top management *request* confidential interviews. I could name two large internationals where top management would not allow anyone other than the auditor to be present.

In summary: Hypothetical questions may be asked here as they have been since I put the first forum software online in 1997 (the old WEB-BBS by Darryl Burgdorf). Never before in any thread have I seen anyone object to a thread based upon a "What If..." question. I think I know why it has come up in this thread, and I think it's a personal thing. I will restate this so there is no misunderstanding by anyone here: If you prefer not to be involved in hypothetical scenario threads you have the option not to participate in them. There is absolutely no reason someone can not start a hypothetical scenario thread if they have a "What If..." question.
 
J

JaneB

#18
Re: Can auditors freely conduct confidential interviews, or consent it necessary?

:topic: Since you have decided to take this "Off Topic", I feel I should respond. That's fine, Jane, but there are people who are curious about hypothetical scenarios and if you look through threads here you will see there are many threads over the years wherein people ask "what if". I have never before seen you post such a comment in any other thread that you do not think it was appropriate because it's a "What If..." topic.
It isn't a first. You may not have noticed others.

But with respect Marc, please do not misquote me, or put words I did not say into my mouth. I did not, ever, say it wasn't "appropriate". Those are your words, and in fact not an opinion (let alone an inference) with which I agree.

I just mused aloud with a question about value, and an opinion.
Nothing more, nothing less. Why do you see a problem in that?

As for why you would come to your unwarranted and untrue opinion that it's somehow "personal" I have absolutely no idea. Where on earth did that come from? But as you've you raised this idea, allow me to contradict it firmly: it isn't.

As for various points you raise about risk analysis, etc. I happen to agree with you, but they are off topic. Not anything related to this thread topic.

And I already agreed with your point re. senior management.
 
P

pldey42

#19
Can an auditor freely conduct confidential interviews with employees without any influence of the company? Or there should be a written consent prior to audit?

My questions are applicable to both external and internal audits. The consent I am saying could come from, for example, the company/management, department, or process owner.
I can offer a couple of practical examples of confidential audit interviews.

But before that, a simple clarification. There's always a confidentiality agreement between clients and CBs, and CBs and their auditors, that safeguards the client's confidential information. Similar for internal auditors.

While openness is generally healthy for audits, in Information Security (ISO 27001) and Business Continuity (BS 25999) it's sometimes necessary for the auditor to use discretion about whom to tell what.

For example, if it becomes apparent that too many people have access to data in an uncontrolled fashion, the auditor will only tell the Information Security management team because if the security weakness becomes generally known in the organization, and the subject of gossip, a disgruntled employee might send something indiscreet to Wikileaks. InfoSec auditors don't want to provoke the very attacks they're trying to prevent!

Or if it becomes apparent in a BS 25999 audit that the organization's preparations - developed at vast expense - for extreme weather are fatally flawed, this is news that the BC management team might want to manage: they'd be annoyed with an auditor who disclosed it to the office gossip and unwittingly provoked the kind of management knee-jerk that makes everyone look stupid.

My second practical example is to do with auditing in management cultures of bullying and intimidation, sadly too common in the software industry and perhaps other sectors too.

The SEI's CMM assessment methodology for software organizations (which is like ISO 9001 or TickIT audits but deeper and more expensive in time) is designed for large software organizations where bullying and intimidation (psychological, not physical) is the order of the day.

In order to promote frankness in interviews, the assessment team agree with senior management ahead of time that interviews will be confidential, that findings will not be attributable to individuals, and that management will not conduct witch-hunts after the assessment report has been delivered. (Their terminology is more formal, but you get the idea.)

One reason these assessments are more expensive is they interview more people than perhaps is necessary so that, for example, management would have to fire the entire test team if they did not like what had been said in the test department. Further, they're more expensive again to allow time for the extra formal reviews of findings and evidence that are necessary to make sure that confidentiality does not become a smoke-screen for continued political in-fighting, disinformation and manipulation.

Such audits can be quite uncomfortable and adversarial, so proper training. integrity of auditors, leadership and executive sponsorship is essential. But they recognize that management intimidation can suppress open communications and distort audit findings. A confidentiality agreement, that everyone can see management have signed, can begin to cut through years of mismanagement and slowly bring open communications to the organization, as home truths are exposed and no longer suppressed in an atmosphere of blame games and one-upmanship.

In one such organization I was responsible for internal audits. Our audit procedure promised department managers that audit findings would be confidential so that they could not be used as ammunition by other department managers in their interminable political fights. (But the audit findings would be escalated to senior management if they did not fix them.) Not ideal, but it was either that or no audit programme.

We used the introduction of formal processes to - slowly, carefully, and not without some tough management sponsorship - defeat the politics with data and objective evidence, and documented processes which essentially were agreements amongst managers about whom was responsible for what, and the criteria for handoffs amongst teams. Written processes and hard data reduced the space available for blame games.

Edited to add: Prior consent is always necessary. One manages confidentiality in an open fashion in order to avoid misunderstandings and the appearance of pursuing a hidden agenda.

Hope this helps,
Pat
 
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K

Ka Pilo

#20
Thank you for the excellent discussions.

My next question would be -

How does the auditor document findings which may divulge proprietary information or indicate fraud or other criminal or unethical activity?
 
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