Can External Audits by Customer be treated As Internal Audits

paultyler

Involved In Discussions
#1
If your customer conducts an audit can one include this in records as part of the internal audting process. If not would you still retain records of customer audits, if so what section of AS9100 would this apply too?
 
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Jim Wynne

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#2
Re: External Audits As Internal Audits

If your customer conducts an audit can one include this in records as part of the internal audting process. If not would you still retain records of customer audits, if so what section of AS9100 would this apply too?
I'm not an expert in the aerospace realm, but I think your question is generic enough for me to weigh in (if not, someone will correct me :D).
In general, there are three types of audits: third-party (by CBs/registrars), second-party (by customers, generally) and internal (performed by employees of your company (including contractors). A second-party audit is not an internal audit in the same sense that a third-party audit is not a second-party audit. The categories are non-overlapping. You would certainly want to keep records of all of them, including second-party audits, but I don't think there should be a need to try and find justification (or a requirement) in the standard to do so.
 
B

BadgerMan

#3
Re: External Audits As Internal Audits

Here is my opinion…..

I would not let a customer audit suffice as an internal audit for the reasons that Jim has stated but also because a second party auditor would generally not have the same level of insight as a good internal auditor. Hence, a properly performed internal audit should be much more effective at discovering opportunities to improve.

Second party audits are generally just a cursory verification of compliance whereas internal audits should be a thorough assessment of processes with an emphasis on identifying opportunities for improvement.
 

Sidney Vianna

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#4
Re: External Audits As Internal Audits

If your customer conducts an audit can one include this in records as part of the internal audting process.
Absolutely NOT. You have no control over the scope, depth, criteria and competence of a customer audit(or).
If not would you still retain records of customer audits, if so what section of AS9100 would this apply too?
The part that requires top management to review results of audits, during management reviews: AS9100B 5.6.2.a)
 
J
#5
Re: External Audits As Internal Audits

If your customer conducts an audit can one include this in records as part of the internal audting process. If not would you still retain records of customer audits, if so what section of AS9100 would this apply too?
Without getting into the specifics of standards, the short and simple answer is "Absolutely NOT".
An Internal audit (I audit me for me) is to be conducted by someone in the firm, or by someone specifically hired by the firm to examine the processes FOR the firm. The Goal is, not just to assure compliance, but to help determine if imporvements can be made.

A Customer Audit (I audit you for me) has an entirely different focus. Number one you did not hire them, they hired you. Second they are not necessarily interested in improving your systems but are more interested in can you meet their specific requirements.

While you may find benefit from customer audits, they cannot be considered by any definition, an internal audit. I would not accept this if I were conducting a second or third party audit of you.

Peace
James
 

somashekar

Staff member
Super Moderator
#6
Re: External Audits As Internal Audits

If your customer conducts an audit can one include this in records as part of the internal audting process. If not would you still retain records of customer audits, if so what section of AS9100 would this apply too?
You must rather take all the outputs of the customer audit into consideration when you plan your internal audits. It can no way be a substitution. The 1st party, 2nd party, 3rd party audits are clearly said by Jim up this thread.
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#7
Re: External Audits by Customer As Internal Audits

I too think it does not.
I would like to add that a Customer audit could be a trigger for an internal audit on the interested processes , to make internally follow up on the effectiveness of the corrective actions implemented, in case your Customer raised some non conformity during the 2nd part audit.
Hope this helps.
 

Ajit Basrur

Staff member
Admin
#8
Re: External Audits by Customer As Internal Audits

Even I agree that the answer is NO to the OP's question.

Can anyone throw light on this scenario -

There is a customer whose OEM is a Tier I organization. Now, this Tier I has subcontracted some of his activities to a Tier II organization. If Tier I audits Tier II organization, its definitely a second party audit.

But if the end Customer wants to audit the OEM, Tier I organization and as part of its preparedness, if Tier I audits Tier II, would that be still second party audit ?

My understanding was that when the end customer wishes to audit Tier I, both the organizations viz. Tier I and Tier II are like a common supplier, isnt it ?
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#9
Re: External Audits by Customer As Internal Audits

Not so sure.
I think that in the supply chain End Customer interfaces only on Tier 1.
Tier 2 could also be a supplier of another Customer or Tier 2 of another Tier 1 for a different product, in a sort of "foundry model".
Probaly this theme merits more in depth analysis, looking directly the relationship and the agreement done between the counterparts.
Hope this helps

Even I agree that the answer is NO to the OP's question.

Can anyone throw light on this scenario -

There is a customer whose OEM is a Tier I organization. Now, this Tier I has subcontracted some of his activities to a Tier II organization. If Tier I audits Tier II organization, its definitely a second party audit.

But if the end Customer wants to audit the OEM, Tier I organization and as part of its preparedness, if Tier I audits Tier II, would that be still second party audit ?

My understanding was that when the end customer wishes to audit Tier I, both the organizations viz. Tier I and Tier II are like a common supplier, isnt it ?
 
#10
Re: External Audits by Customer As Internal Audits

If your customer conducts an audit can one include this in records as part of the internal audting process. If not would you still retain records of customer audits, if so what section of AS9100 would this apply too?
Question 1 - NO! Internal audits are exactly that! The customer isn't internal to your organization?

Question 2 - Yes! You might have to be selective about how 'accurate' a customer's audit is, but you should still take notice!

Although you have a lot of descriptive answers here, the fact is Sidney gave you the correct answers........
 
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