Can external quality consultant carry out internal audit?

Q

qualeety

#11
clarification needed

D.Scott said:
One thing you must bear in mind -

You, as a consultant, will not be allowed to participate in the certification audit. Your client will need someone with enough knowledge of the quality system to be able to represent them at the audit.

Dave
really dave?...can you support your statement?...as a consultant, i always participated in the certification audit.....matter of a fact, i was the point man for the company, since company is sooooooooo ill prepared.
 
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D

Don Palmer

#12
qualeety said:
really dave?...can you support your statement?...as a consultant, i always participated in the certification audit.....matter of a fact, i was the point man for the company, since company is sooooooooo ill prepared.
I too, was a bit surprised at Dave's statement. Our consultant was available (not on-sight but by phone) at the time of our certification audit (per contract) to assist us in any way needful regarding the QMS manuals he constructed for us as well as any and all consultancy he offered in preparation. He came through on several minor issues (not non-conformance issues) that proved valuable during the assessment audit.

Our ISO compliance, implementation, registration process was a team effort by ALL involved.

On the other hand Qualeety, I am somewhat shocked that you put in writing that you client "is sooooooooo ill prepared". :bonk: I hope the fact that they were ill prepared in no way reflects services provided.:mg: :eek:
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#13
D.Scott said:
One thing you must bear in mind -

You, as a consultant, will not be allowed to participate in the certification audit. Your client will need someone with enough knowledge of the quality system to be able to represent them at the audit.

Dave

Since several posters challenged this, I would add a qualifier. I am both a consultant and auditor.

In TS, consultants are not allowed to participate in the audit. However, there is nothing that says they may not be present. It is common that they are present, and follow along with observing the audit. However, obviously, we are not there to audit them. (I assume they are discussing things offline with their client, however).

In ISO, a consultant is allowed to be present and provide guidance for his client, but they generally do not answer questions or actively particpate in the certification with the auditors. Again, I accept their observing the audits without any issues or interference. Never really had any problems with it.

I am not aware of any rule that would prevent a consultant from doing internal audits for the client. It is common with smaller organizations.
 
Q

qualeety

#14
delivering the promise

Muleskinner said:
On the other hand Qualeety, I am somewhat shocked that you put in writing that you client "is sooooooooo ill prepared". :bonk: I hope the fact that they were ill prepared in no way reflects services provided.:mg: :eek:
depends...if putting my tap dance shoes and got the company the certification it desires then you could say i done my job...on the other hand, if i was there to help them improved then you could say i failed somewhat...i won few battles but i KNOW i lost the war...at least, i delivered what i promised...which is to get them the certification....now, about that auditor....never mind!!!! :topic:
 
#15
A couple of things here. First, when I work with a company, I usually have another consultant perform the audit. We also have several clients that all we do is their internal audits. Secondly, most of the registrars in this area are not thrilled with a consultant being present during their audits. Some will come right out and say they will not audit while the consultant is present. Others will allow us there, but not active in the audit itself. I imagine that is to prevent some sort of major argument about interpretation. It sounds like they are unsure about their abilities, but after seeing what other consultants have their clients doing in documentation, I can see the registrar’s point.
 

bpritts

Involved - Posts
#16
My experience as a hired expert with QS-9000 and TS 16949 audits has been that you need to consider the intent of the restriction that consultants can be present only as observers.

Fortunately, I must endorse the good judgement of the vast majority of registrar personnel who have been auditing my clients.

The origin of this requirement was the tendency in the early days for companies
to hire a golden-tongued scalawag to sweet talk the auditor, telling him or her what they wanted to hear... regardless of actual practice. Another frequent
failure mode was that the consultant disappeared once the certificate was
completed.

However, when a client paid my organization fees to have me on site full time for six months to develop a system, I believe that we were certainly not in
this position, but were a bona fide part of the organization.

In order to provide the registrars clarity on this point, we made it clear that I was not a "consultant", but rather a contract employee --

-- Training records and qualifications in the employee files with other temps
-- Place on the org chart, called out as a contract employee
-- a well defined set of responsibilities (many) and authority (little!)

Additionally, in the course of the audit, I would limit my involvement to that
of guide and quality system expert. If the auditor wanted to see compliance,
I would take them to the appropriate employee doing the job, introduce them,
and keep my mouth shut. (Those who knew me personally realized how
difficult this was for me!!! :eek: On the other hand, if a question came up regarding how the system met the standard, I could and did speak up and
explain the logic. Similarly, if I had done the internal audit, I was subject
to being audited directly on that topic.

Good auditors treated this the same way they would treat a manager/guide.
They might ask the manager/guide a question... but they'd also ask the
employee actually doing the job. If necessary, they counsel the guide to
remain silent and let the employee answer. It's no different.

Best regards........................Brad
 
D

Don Palmer

#17
The voice of reason...this makes sense

bpritts said:
My experience as a hired expert with QS-9000 and TS 16949 audits has been that you need to consider the intent of the restriction that consultants can be present only as observers.

Fortunately, I must endorse the good judgement of the vast majority of registrar personnel who have been auditing my clients.

The origin of this requirement was the tendency in the early days for companies to hire a golden-tongued scalawag to sweet talk the auditor, telling him or her what they wanted to hear... regardless of actual practice. Another frequent failure mode was that the consultant disappeared once the certificate was completed.

However, when a client paid my organization fees to have me on site full time for six months to develop a system, I believe that we were certainly not in
this position, but were a bona fide part of the organization.

In order to provide the registrars clarity on this point, we made it clear that I was not a "consultant", but rather a contract employee --

-- Training records and qualifications in the employee files with other temps
-- Place on the org chart, called out as a contract employee
-- a well defined set of responsibilities (many) and authority (little!)

Additionally, in the course of the audit, I would limit my involvement to that
of guide and quality system expert. If the auditor wanted to see compliance,
I would take them to the appropriate employee doing the job, introduce them,
and keep my mouth shut. (Those who knew me personally realized how
difficult this was for me!!! :eek: On the other hand, if a question came up regarding how the system met the standard, I could and did speak up and
explain the logic. Similarly, if I had done the internal audit, I was subject
to being audited directly on that topic.

Good auditors treated this the same way they would treat a manager/guide.
They might ask the manager/guide a question... but they'd also ask the
employee actually doing the job. If necessary, they counsel the guide to
remain silent and let the employee answer. It's no different.

Best regards........................Brad
Brad, thanks for sharing this personal experience. I for one, appreciate people sharing actual events. So much more meaningful to some here, I would think.:cool: Again, thanks for sharing!
 

QChas

Involved - Posts
#18
How about partnering with your customers and suppliers to do Internal Audits? As a small company, this has worked well for us. Every 6 months I go to a customer and provide an internal audit, and they do an internal audit at our facility. Just another option to think about.
 
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