Can informal instructions be documented information

[hussainap]

hi every1

can informal instructions on the wall be classified as documented information as per ISO 14001

Instructions says "This sink is not for plaster oil based paint or solvents. Oil based paint, white spirit, and solvent cleaner are marine pollutants. They must not be poured down any sink"

This instruction on the wall has no title, date, author, reference. Can a conformity be raised against ISO 14001 clause 7.5.2 (a) ?

 

[Randy]

Sound's like something from a waste water permit, but a short blurp like that, you'd be killing yourself in the attempt. I wouldn't give it a 2nd notice it's like a "reference" or "memory aid"

 

[hussainap]

thanks for your reply but this book i am reading suggests that informal communication regarding procedure is uncontrolled documented information (below excerpt).

"Uncontrolled documents. Look around for "bandit documents" posted on walls, machines, and desks. These are often uncontrolled, informal specs or procedures. Bandit documents often take the form of sticky notes, marker settings written on machines, old memos, printed e-mails, and photocopies of external documents. If the document provides information on product requirements, process control guidelines, or decision-making criteria, you need to inquire how the information is supposed to be controlled.

Source: Cochran, C. (2017). Internal auditing in plain English : a simple guide to super effective ISO audits. Chico, California: Paton Professional.
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[Sidney Vianna]

This instruction on the wall has no title, date, author, reference. Can a conformity be raised against ISO 14001 clause 7.5.2 (a) ?

First, you don’t raise a conformity; you raise a nonconformity. Second, what you should be asking is: is the signage correct, relevant and current? If so, as previously mentioned, it is a memory aid that does not contravene anything expected for the proper processing of waste. So, it HELPS the workforce in doing the right thing. Third, just because something is written in a book somewhere does not necessarily make it right. Some “authors” of such books have taken intelectual beatings, here in this very space.

 

[dwperron]

This instruction on the wall has no title, date, author, reference. Can a conformity be raised against ISO 14001 clause 7.5.2 (a) ?

I wouldn't give it a 2nd notice it's like a "reference" or "memory aid"


We just got hit in an AS9100D audit for having "reference" and "memory aid" items stuck on walls and work areas. The question was "What's the difference between a memory aid and a work instruction?" A work instruction requires that it be controlled, and we were challenged as to what if someone follows an incorrect / outdated / etc. posted memory aid?

They raised a valid point, we had gotten sloppy. Now everything is purged unless it is reviewed and stamped as approved or clearly marked as Reference Only.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

We just got hit in an AS9100D audit for having "reference" and "memory aid" items stuck on walls and work areas. The question was "What's the difference between a memory aid and a work instruction?" A work instruction requires that it be controlled, and we were challenged as to what if someone follows an incorrect / outdated / etc. posted memory aid?

We had a very enlightening discussion concerning this on Personal Notes on Production Floor vs. Documented Work Instructions

They raised a valid point, we had gotten sloppy. Now everything is purged unless it is reviewed and stamped as approved or clearly marked as Reference Only.

What "marked for reference only" actually do? The idea that workforce aids are counterproductive to product quality baffles the mind. One must FIND OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE that the instructions are outdated, incorrect, wrong....before punishing the workforce, who will surely start "hiding" such notes. Improvement?

 

[Scanton]

I have always requested that such information should at a minimum have a reference (e.g. a name) of the authority that posted it, and a date (usually month and year will suffice) it was posted.

If anyone going forward wants to challenge its legitimacy or on what authority it was posted, they should have all the information they need right there.

 

[hussainap]

i just had a conversation with a lead auditor at British Standard Institution. they will consider it a documented information and raise a minor non-conformity against ISO clause 7.5

for a small organisation a work instruction can be as simple as just 2 sentences.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

i just had a conversation with a lead auditor at British Standard Institution. they will consider it a documented information and raise a minor non-conformity against ISO clause 7.5

Any auditor who makes blanket, all-encompassing statements, without analyzing the specific issues and context of a scenario is proving to be incompetent. A dime a dozen these days.....

 

[dwperron]

The idea that workforce aids are counterproductive to product quality baffles the mind. One must FIND OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE that the instructions are outdated, incorrect, wrong....before punishing the workforce, who will surely start "hiding" such notes. Improvement?

So what happens if a skilled senior worker creates a simplified shortcut to the actual work instruction, just the high points, not everything. Then some less skilled and trained worker follows these same incomplete work instructions as though they were complete?
How else can someone be sure that whatever is posted as an aid is correct and safe to follow?
This requires a change in the culture to not accept shortcuts. Quality and accuracy are worth a little extra effort.