Can informal instructions be documented information

[Scanton]

i just had a conversation with a lead auditor at British Standard Institution. they will consider it a documented information and raise a minor non-conformity against ISO clause 7.5

for a small organisation a work instruction can be as simple as just 2 sentences.

If that same sign had the name of the manager and a date on it, I would challenge any auditor trying to raise a nonconformance against it.

Please don't be fooled into believing that any piece of toilet paper with crayon markings on it is “Documented Information” and must have a document number, be recorded on a separate document register, the authors signature in blood and a controlled copy stamp on it!

 

[Sidney Vianna]

So what happens if a skilled senior worker creates a simplified shortcut to the actual work instruction, just the high points, not everything. Then some less skilled and trained worker follows these same incomplete work instructions as though they were complete?
How else can someone be sure that whatever is posted as an aid is correct and safe to follow?
This requires a change in the culture to not accept shortcuts. Quality and accuracy are worth a little extra effort.

I will not repeat the extensive comments exchanged in the thread I linked previously.

 

[dwperron]

I will not repeat the extensive comments exchanged in the thread I linked previously.

I looked through several pages of that conversation. Looks like you had the same story then, and lots of folks chose to disagree with you.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

That's a fair assessment. If there was no disagreement, that thread would not have 19 pages of comments. Most of the time, I don't try to convince anyone who has opposing views to mine, but to make other people who come here, much later, to think for themselves.

 

[hussainap]

If that same sign had the name of the manager and a date on it, I would challenge any auditor trying to raise a nonconformance against it.

Please don't be fooled into believing that any piece of toilet paper with crayon markings on it is “Documented Information” and must have a document number, be recorded on a separate document register, the authors signature in blood and a controlled copy stamp on it!

unless these instructions are classified as documented information, the company is not obliged to have a title, doc no, date & sign [ISO 7.5.2]

so the real issue is whether these informal instructions are documented information or not

 

[Scanton]

unless these instructions are classified as documented information, the company is not obliged to have a title, doc no, date & sign [ISO 7.5.2]

so the real issue is whether these informal instructions are documented information or not

From my viewpoint, the answer is "no they are not".

In my working environment I have templates for such documents so that they are easily recognised, and easily distinguished from signs and notices.

If it were me, I would have a procedure or specific instruction as to what is and is not acceptable to put down my drains (a controlled document) and train employees on that.

The notice would just be a reminder (and as I said before), with the managers name and date on the notice everyone will know how relevant it is and who to talk to if they have any questions about it.

As Sidney Vianna points out, everyone has their own opinion so go ahead and decide what works best for you.

 

[Cari Spears]

so the real issue is whether these informal instructions are documented information or not

I think it's a sign - no more instructional or procedural than a "safety glasses required" or "no parking" sign posted. I would not choose to control this sign at a sink that is simply telling one what can and cannot be poured in it. The point is, you get to decide. Will something ever change about what can and cannot be poured into this sink? Will something ever change about the requirement to wear eye protection in the machining department?

 

[dwperron]

I think it's a sign - no more instructional or procedural than a "safety glasses required" or "no parking" sign posted. I would not choose to control this sign at a sink that is simply telling one what can and cannot be poured in it. The point is, you get to decide. Will something ever change about what can and cannot be poured into this sink?

Please recognize that this is dealing with ISO 14001 compliance, the standard for Environmental Management Systems.
It certainly does make a difference, in this case, what substances are poured into that drain.

 

[Cari Spears]

IPlease recognize that this is dealing with ISO 14001 compliance, the standard for Environmental Management Systems. It certainly does make a difference, in this case, what substances are poured into that drain.

I'm familiar. I understand that it matters what substances must not be poured into a drain. It also matters that people wear safety glasses in certain areas, and don't block access to fire extinguishers, and don't put plastic or garbage into our paper recycling bins, and don't park in a fire lane...

A sign that says "Don't put *these things* down this drain." isn't a work instruction or procedure.

 

[hussainap]

a sign will say "Dont pour chemicals in sink". But in this case the instructions on wall is internally communicating three key elements

1) Environmental aspect: Accidental spillage of oil based paint, thinner, white spirit, and solvents cleaners [Substances explicitly mentioned]
2) Environmental Impact: marine pollution
3) Control: Human precaution

What if the company starts using water-based paints instead oil based paints and natural citrus solvent instead of thinner.
Will it be okay to dump these environmentally safer yet hazardous alternatives down the sink?

my argument is that this is clearly more than a safety sign