Can informal instructions be documented information

[Randy]

i just had a conversation with a lead auditor at British Standard Institution. they will consider it a documented information and raise a minor non-conformity against ISO clause 7.5

Really? I'd like to see where that's written as a requirement, especially the "they will consider it" part

 

[Randy]

What if the company starts using water-based paints instead oil based paints and natural citrus solvent instead of thinner.
Will it be okay to dump these environmentally safer yet hazardous alternatives down the sink

Maybe in some places around the world, but in the US, especially in some states, it could be a one-way ticket to prison and a civil lawsuit.

 

[Randy]

ld have added this earlier

a sign will say "Dont pour chemicals in sink". But in this case the instructions on wall is internally communicating three key elements

1) Environmental aspect: Accidental spillage of oil based paint, thinner, white spirit, and solvents cleaners [Substances explicitly mentioned]
2) Environmental Impact: marine pollution
3) Control: Human precaution

Totally different, now document control most likely is required especially if linked to a significant aspect and/or regulatory requirement. Most assuradly it would be agianst your policy commitment "prevention of pollution" to allow it.

 

[Scanton]

a sign will say "Dont pour chemicals in sink". But in this case the instructions on wall is internally communicating three key elements

1) Environmental aspect: Accidental spillage of oil based paint, thinner, white spirit, and solvents cleaners [Substances explicitly mentioned]
2) Environmental Impact: marine pollution
3) Control: Human precaution

What if the company starts using water-based paints instead oil based paints and natural citrus solvent instead of thinner.
Will it be okay to dump these environmentally safer yet hazardous alternatives down the sink?

my argument is that this is clearly more than a safety sign

Personally I do not agree, for example this is a safety sign NOT an instruction.
You could have something very similar about what to and what not to put down a sink, and it still would be a sign and not an instruction.

 

[sonflowerinwales]

Hi there
In my humble opinion, the sign "do not put plaster..." is not a work instruction for this scenario and does not warrant an observation or non-conformance. The actual activity controlling document is generated and led by paragraph 8.1 "The organisation shall establish..."
The example provided by Scanton sums it up nicely.
Cheers
Paul

 

[hussainap]

Personally I do not agree, for example this is a safety sign NOT an instruction.
You could have something very similar about what to and what not to put down a sink, and it still would be a sign and not an instruction.
View attachment 29433

i totally agree what you uploaded is a sign. what you have shared is a multiple sign on one board. Whereas, in the sink instructions specific aspect [substances explicitly mentioned], associated impact [marine pollution, a specific property of those substances] and control was communicated. The organisation had communicated everything that the worker needs to about that aspect. What else was left to communicate about that aspect?

 

[Randy]

i totally agree what you uploaded is a sign. what you have shared is a multiple sign on one board. Whereas, in the sink instructions specific aspect [substances explicitly mentioned], associated impact [marine pollution, a specific property of those substances] and control was communicated. The organisation had communicated everything that the worker needs to about that aspect. What else was left to communicate about that aspect?

Then control it and stop messing around with tid-bit guessing

 

[hussainap]

Then control it and stop messing around with tid-bit guessing

i have come to the conclusion to treat such specific information being communicated as documented information. Especially because, its a small company and the information provided on the sink is specific and complete communication about the environmental aspect.

What if the company starts using water-based paints instead oil based paints and natural citrus solvent instead of thinner? A worker may pour new chemicals in sink if information is not controlled.

Minor NC / Case closed /

 

[Randy]

What if the company starts using water-based paints instead oil based paints and natural citrus solvent instead of thinner? A worker may pour new chemicals in sink if information is not controlled.

A sign on the wall isn't going to stop anyone from doing anything. Creating proper performance is based on teaching, attitude and reinforcement

 

[hussainap]

According to ISO 14001 a documented information can even be a graphic. In this case the instructions on wall is internally communicating three key elements

1) Environmental aspect: Accidental spillage of oil based paint, thinner, white spirit, and solvents cleaners [Substances explicitly mentioned]
2) Environmental Impact: marine pollution
3) Control: Human precaution

this is much more than what a graphic can communicate. A change in operating procedure should be a trigger for updating this memory aid / no loose ends / convenience should not be achieved at the expense of risk.

If a single memory aid has a potential to result in EMS failure or prosecution then its better to either control it or get rid of it.

Minor NC / Case closed /