Can ISO 17025 be turned on and off depending on what you pay for?

ScottK

Not out of the crisis
Staff member
Super Moderator
#1
OK that's an odd question but here's the situation:

We have a couple of pieces of equipment to get calibrated. We sent the info for a quote and the calibration house came back with a price.
Then we said "Oh - we just noticed your cert doesn't say that you are ISO 17025 accredited and we need that for this piece of equipement" and they came back and said "if you want that on the cert it's a markup".
And the markup was on the order of 100%.

I called back and said "wait wait wait... Isn't 17025 a QMS? You either have it or you don't. For all processes or none. Right?"
A manager got on the phone and proceeded to explain how expensive and how long the accreditation process was and that if we want our stuff calibrated to the "accredited process" with the "accredited equipment" we have to pay the premium.
"All calibration houses do it this way" he said.

Now - am I wrong in calling bull&*^?

I thought 17025 accredited the entire operation - not just certain processes.

Please straighten me out if I'm wrong.
 
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Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#2
OK that's an odd question but here's the situation:

We have a couple of pieces of equipment to get calibrated. We sent the info for a quote and the calibration house came back with a price.
Then we said "Oh - we just noticed your cert doesn't say that you are ISO 17025 accredited and we need that for this piece of equipement" and they came back and said "if you want that on the cert it's a markup".
And the markup was on the order of 100%.

I called back and said "wait wait wait... Isn't 17025 a QMS? You either have it or you don't. For all processes or none. Right?"
A manager got on the phone and proceeded to explain how expensive and how long the accreditation process was and that if we want our stuff calibrated to the "accredited process" with the "accredited equipment" we have to pay the premium.
"All calibration houses do it this way" he said.

Now - am I wrong in calling bull&*^?

I thought 17025 accredited the entire operation - not just certain processes.

Please straighten me out if I'm wrong.
This is strange...the calibration lab we use has 17025 accreditation and we aren't charged a premium for having the certifications reflect the 17025 accreditation.
 
S

somerqc

#3
The calibration house we use went through this process a bit over a year ago. The prices rose exactly $1 since then . It was probably more due to the overall increase in operating costs than the accreditation.

So I would agree that they are full of ........

John
 

BradM

Staff member
Admin
#4
Yes... they do those kinds of activities.

The statement goes that the paperwork may be different and stuff.

Many calibration houses may only have some/a few processes "covered", and may be doing work that is outside their scope.

I agree with you. It's like providing the data. You have it as part of the calibration process. Why am I getting charged for it as an extra?
 

Hershal

Metrologist-Auditor
Staff member
Super Moderator
#5
Actually, that situation is not uncommon.....some (including me) consider that process unethical.....that is, an accredited lab should not charge extra for the calibrations that are under the scope.....but marketplace realities.....

The accreditation does include the QMS, but unlike 9K is not limited to the QMS.....in fact, the technical scope of accreditation requires an evaluation of the calibration process including equipment, personnel, uncertainty, certificates, and other related factors.....

Calibration that is NOT under the technical scope CANNOT receive an accredited certificate, otherwise they risk all kinds of unpleasant discussions with the AB.....

It must also be noted that many labs do in fact charge the same or a very low premium for an accredited cal. If you receive a high charge (like the 100% you mentioned), then I would look for the AB logo and the specific uncertainties for each reading to justify a high cost.....

Hope this helps.
 

ScottK

Not out of the crisis
Staff member
Super Moderator
#6
So I am wrong.
Very good.
I learned something valuable today, thank you.

Now I have to check with my PED notified body to see if their QMS being acreddited is enough or if he requires that the calibration process for our equipment used for PED parts needs be under their acreddited process.

Still... that markup seems very extreme.
 

ScottK

Not out of the crisis
Staff member
Super Moderator
#7
Continuing this line of questioning...

Is the QMS accredited PLUS certain processes?
Or are only the processes accredited?
 

Hershal

Metrologist-Auditor
Staff member
Super Moderator
#8
The laboratory to include BOTH the QMS and technical operations (described in the scope of accreditation) are addressed by the accreditation.....the QMS without the technical operations would basically be ISO9001.
 

ScottBP

Involved In Discussions
#9
Fluke does this all the time. You get charged more for a 17025 accredited calibration with uncertainties than a standard Z540-compliant calibration, and the markup for them is on the order of 30-40%. I've been told the reasoning for the extra charge is that it takes extra time to compute and report the uncertainties versus just taking the readings.

Many cal labs charge in "tiers", where you pay one price for a certificate only, a bit more for certificate and data, and a lot more for 17025 accredited with uncertainties. There are companies who only care about getting a certificate, and unfortunately, there are cal labs out there who cater to those customers.
 

Wesley Richardson

Wes R
Trusted Information Resource
#10
Sorry to come to this discussion so late.

At a testing and calibration lab where I previously worked, that was Accredited to ISO/IEC Guide 25 and then ISO/IEC 17025, several of the suppliers that I sent our equipment to for calibration had a two-tier fee schedule. The certificate meeting the ISO/IEC 17025 requirements in one case was exactly double the non-17025 certificate.

When I audited this supplier, I then understood why. The non-17025 certificate for my device was two pages long. The ISO/IEC 17025 compliant certificate was seven pages long and had five times as many data points collected, in addition to reporting the uncertainty information. After seeing this, I then understood, and agreed with, the higher price for the calibration. By the way, even though they were Accredited to ISO/IEC 17025 for the scope of work, I still had to audit them because of our clients that did not recognize ISO/IEC 17025 in their industries.

Wes R.
 
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