Can NonConformance (NC) be raised against Effectiveness? (Ineffectiveness)

P

pinpin - 2009

#1
I have seen NC raised for "Ineffectiveness".

I saw NC like these:

1) the method implemented is not effective
2) no evidence shown that the method used is effective
3) the evidence shown that the method used is ineffective

Is it right and legitimate to raise for auditor to raise such NC?

For those who are willing to express their views, thank you.......:thanx:
 
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T

The Moose

#2
Re: Can NonConformance (NC) be raised against Effectiveness?

Maybe it's just the way it is worded butit seems a bit vauge and unspecific. Personally speaking I wouldn't raise the action as such, I would target it either towards the effectivness of a particular named process e.g. corrective action, or towards the competency of the person implementin the "ineffective method" or who has evaluated and accepted the method implemented
 

Colin

Quite Involved in Discussions
#3
Re: Can NonConformance (NC) be raised against Effectiveness?

I would raise an NC if a process was not effective in achieving its objectives.

Clause 4.1 c) of ISO 9001 states 'determine criteria and methods needed to ensure that the operation and control of these processes are effective'

More importantly to me though is the fact that if the process is not effective, why are they doing it that way.

The Moose is quite right of course, the wording needs to be carefully stated or it may come across as opinion on the part of the auditor.
 
M

M Greenaway

#4
Re: Can NonConformance (NC) be raised against Effectiveness?

I wouldnt raise an NC on effectiveness.

If the company has an objective which is being measured against and the company failed to meet that objective then yes it is ineffective, but if this is reviewed at management level and actions are proposed to correct this then the system is working.

If there are no actions to improve, or no review then it is this part of the system that is failing and warrants the NC.

I say you need to audit the system, not the outcome - does the company have a system of objectives, review and actions ?
 

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#5
Re: Can NonConformance (NC) be raised against Effectiveness?

I have seen nonconformances raised on the issue of effectiveness when the auditor was being "nice" and was not issuing a finding against a very large gap in the system.

Example: "The process of management review does not effectively address the requirements of...." instead of "The management review process has been dropped."
 

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#6
Re: Can NonConformance (NC) be raised against Effectiveness?

Let us just throw out an example...

Say that there were many corrective actions out there, and most of them showed problems cropping up again and again, even after the original request was closed. Wouldn't you feel justified to issue a nonconformance on the effectiveness of the corrective action system? I would.

I think that this is something you need to be careful with, but it is certainly an appropriate nonconformance. I also would hope that the nonconformance was issued with more evidence than the simple sentence that was shared with us:confused: I think that issueing nonconformances against effectiveness could snowball to the point where it would be overused and become a catch-all phrase for auditors without good referencing skills. (jmho)
 
#7
Re: Can NonConformance (NC) be raised against Effectiveness?

I have seen NC raised for "Ineffectiveness".

I saw NC like these:

1) the method implemented is not effective
2) no evidence shown that the method used is effective
3) the evidence shown that the method used is ineffective

Is it right and legitimate to raise for auditor to raise such NC?

For those who are willing to express their views, thank you.......:thanx:
Certainly it is legitimate to raise NC's against the effectivness of a part of the system. The examples given don't (entirely) do this, however, since there is no evidence given to support the conclusion. If there had been (numerous) examples of issues - that might indicate an ineffective system or process. Just saying it is, doens't make it so!

The last one (3) tends to be that way, but doesn't include what evidence is being considered. Does it exist in your report, Pinpin?
 
C

CliffK

#8
Re: Can NonConformance (NC) be raised against Effectiveness?

Say that there were many corrective actions out there, and most of them showed problems cropping up again and again, even after the original request was closed. Wouldn't you feel justified to issue a nonconformance on the effectiveness of the corrective action system? I would.
Even in this example, you would probably want to tread lightly. Here's a real-life situation:

An organization has been led to believe that every instance of nonconforming product requires a corrective action. Dutifully they have issued corrective actions against each nonconforming batch of product. The CARs have been closed as the nonconforming product has been reworked and various fixes applied to the production process.

The real problem is that the underlying process isn't/has never been stable and no one really knows why. It's a hard problem.

I would propose that an NC would not be appropriate in this situation.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#9
Re: Can NonConformance (NC) be raised against Effectiveness?

A NC against effectiveness can be raised, but there has to be specific evidence presented.

A NC must have:

1. A requirement

2. Evidence of the nonfulfillment of that requirement

Without evidence the NC would be opinion and bogus.
 
C

CliffK

#10
Re: Can NonConformance (NC) be raised against Effectiveness?

A NC against effectiveness can be raised, but there has to be specific evidence presented.

A NC must have:

1. A requirement

2. Evidence of the nonfulfillment of that requirement

Without evidence the NC would be opinion and bogus.
I violently agree with Randy on this!
 
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