Can NonConformance (NC) be raised against Effectiveness? (Ineffectiveness)

B

Bill Pflanz

From ISO 9000:2005.

3.6 Terms relating to conformity

3.6.1
conformity
fulfilment of a requirement (3.1.2)

NOTE The term “conformance” is synonymous but deprecated.

3.6.2
nonconformity
non-fulfilment of a requirement (3.1.2)



I had to look up the definition of deprecated to be sure of its meaning. Webster's defines deprecate as "to express mild or regretful disapproval of". That implies that conformity and nonconformity are the terms of choice by ISO 9000 although conformance and nonconformance could be used.

Bill Pflanz
 
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Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
I had to look up the definition of deprecated to be sure of its meaning. Webster's defines deprecate as "to express mild or regretful disapproval of". That implies that conformity and nonconformity are the terms of choice by ISO 9000 although conformance and nonconformance could be used.

Bill Pflanz
Thank you Bill for the additional explanation. That was very helpful.

Stijloor.
 
P

pinpin - 2009

Topics die a natural death. And there comes a point when people just aren't willing to keep guessing or trying, on very limited information. Unless new, different or other interesting information is provided, or the conversation turns to explore another point, then there comes a point when to continue posting is just repeating what's been said and/or going round in circles. Can't speak for others, but it certainly isn't productive or rewarding for me.

The better information you give, the better responses you get. It's illogical to want a 'satisying' answer to what seems to be quite a specific question, while refusing to post the information people need to respond accurately.

:topic:

Pinpin, I do wonder if you are aware that to say you didn't get a 'satisfactory' answer could be considered a trifle rude in English? Because using that word implies somewhat that 'what you did/said wasn't good enough for me'... is this what you meant to say? (My response was to think it just a little ungrateful, given the number of responses and the many attempts to help you.) Whereas, if you'd said something like 'I didn't get exactly the answer I was looking for', or 'I am still wondering XXXXXX', then that is not.
I am very sorry for not replying for quite some time due to busy work schedule.

Let me sincerely apologize for what I said, mainly due to my poor command of English language.

I indeed very grateful for having the opportunity to learn from many dedicated professionals here! Let me say thank you and sorry once again!

I started this topic of "NC against Effectiveness" because I want to be sure of whether auditor can write NC using exact wordings such as "the method used is not effective" or "the method used is not sufficiently effective"?

Let say, we noticed the some rejected parts were not identified with QC Reject Stickers (as required by procedure) because the parts were quite oily. Should we raise NC saying the fact that some oily rejected parts were found without QC Reject Sticker which is not conformed with 8.3, OR saying "It is not effective to use the QC Rejected Sticker to identify oily rejected parts (but can we find exact nonconformity agaisnt effectiveness of identification method in 8.3 or some other clauses?).

Please do not laugh at me, may be the example given is too insignificant to warrant a NC, please teach me!:thanks::thanx:
 
P

pinpin - 2009

Sorry, let me add on what was missing...the rejected parts were found not identified with those stickers because they fell off due to the parts were oily.
 

Doug Tropf

Quite Involved in Discussions
Sorry, let me add on what was missing...the rejected parts were found not identified with those stickers because they fell off due to the parts were oily.
8.3 states, in part, that the organization shall ensure that product which does not conform to product requirements is identified and controlled. If your control procedures call for rejected parts to be stickered as such, and the stickers tend to fall off of oily parts, then, unless there are alternative control measures, I would find your procedure to be not effective.
 
P

pinpin - 2009

8.3 states, in part, that the organization shall ensure that product which does not conform to product requirements is identified and controlled. If your control procedures call for rejected parts to be stickered as such, and the stickers tend to fall off of oily parts, then, unless there are alternative control measures, I would find your procedure to be not effective.
Thank you very much for your quick response!

Could you tell me how would you phrase your NC?:thanks::thanx:
 

Doug Tropf

Quite Involved in Discussions
Thank you very much for your quick response!

Could you tell me how would you phrase your NC?:thanks::thanx:
Something of this nature:

8.3 requires that nonconforming product be identified and controlled. To comply with this requirement, procedure xxxx provides that nonconforming parts be labeled as such to prevent their unintended use or delivery. During the audit, defective parts were found to be uncontrolled in that the "nonconforming product labels" had failed to remain adhered to the parts (possibly due to the parts oily surface).
 
I would expect a little more quantitative information to be able to write a non-conformity about effectiveness. Otherwise, this becomes, IMHO, a simple compliance NC. The procedure says stick on a label, but the parts are oily, so they don't stick. Has little to do with effectiveness, in my book.

As with many audits, to get past this simple kind of compliance issue, it takes a good auditor to 'test' (that is a definition of audit, after all) a number of other aspects relating to the symptom. How many people were involved in sticking on the labels? Did others know the status of the items? (If they are in a red container the label may not be as important), How long has this been happening? Have parts without labels been processed further or got out to customers? And more.......

This kind of thing needs to be answered before we can write up a true effectiveness NC, in my belief.......
 
Last edited:

Bev D

Heretical Statistician
Staff member
Super Moderator
I think the difficulty here is the definition and use of the term "effective".
Most non compliant situations are the result of an ineffective implementation of a process or an ineffective process. However, this is a guess at cause by the auditor. (I do like the way Doug stated this probable cause!) I really wouldn't use the term effectiveness or effective. The situation is clearly in contradiction to requirements of ISO and your internal procedure. I would write it up that way and leave it to the owner to come to a corrective action that works. Using the phrase "ineffective process" is a bit emotional...and uneccessary.

On the other hand there are situations where there is compliance to documended procedures and ISO yet the result is not helpful or useful or effective. There have been several examples of this already posted.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
It must be remembered, that external auditors (and many internal ones as well) are trained to write a NC with 3 items of information:

1. the violation, failure statement, nonconformance. It must be a clear nonconformance against a requirement. We are often taught to phrase it: "the xyz process was not effective...in meeting its intent." I don't like that wording, but it is how we were taught.

2. The reference in the standard or procedure that was violated, i.e.: cl 6.2.2, or QSP #7.5.001. There has to be a link to a requirement.

3. The actual objective evidence of the incident that was observed, i.e.: "Observed somone dumping the scrap parts into a dumpster, rather than the required bin."

We are required to identify all 3 parts on each NC, which leads to the default statement of, 'xyz process was...not effective."
 
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