Can not do design without a Customer?

In terms of ISO 9001 7.2.1.

  • It can go either way

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    11
  • Poll closed .

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#1
:modcop: Note: Per Jane's request, the relevant posts have been moved from the thread in which this discussion began.


A lively debate sprang up around this topic in another thread. I'm starting this separate thread not to derail the other one any further. (Perhaps we could cut the relevant posts out of that thread and post them here?)

To summarise, I think the topic under debate is:
If you have no customer involvement yet (eg, a new product or service), then none of the requirements of clause 7.2.1 in ISO 9001 apply.

BigJim holds this view strongly. His point is that 7.2.1 is not always a precursor to design, and trying to make it so goes beyond the scope of the standard. 7.3.2 covers the same ground or more, since it is not limited to customer input.

I and some others disagree, saying that you do not have to have any real live customer when you are creating a new service/product, and that you should consider the requirements of 7.2.1 as far as you can pre/while designing. The fact that the 'real' customer comes later is immaterial.

You can see the relevant posts in this thread Does ISO 9001 Clause 7.3 Design and Development apply?

What do you think?

And if I've summarised inadequately, please feel free to correct!


This appears to be the beginning of the discussion:


Also make sure that you have the 7.2.1 stuff down as well..especially 7.2.1b

You can't do 7.3 until you do 7.2.1
So, Randy, does that mean that you feel that design is always based on customer requirements?
 
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Randy

Super Moderator
#2
Re: Does ISO 9001 Clause 7.3 Design and Development apply?

So, Randy, does that mean that you feel that design is always based on customer requirements?
Nope...look at 7.2.1b again..."...not stated by customer..." there can be legal issues, operational issues, even laws of nature and science that could all come into play.
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#3
Re: Does ISO 9001 Clause 7.3 Design and Development apply?

Nope...look at 7.2.1b again..."...not stated by customer..." there can be legal issues, operational issues, even laws of nature and science that could all come into play.
I'll rephrase that. Do you believe that a company cannot undertake a design project on their own? That they can't design on speculation of a possible market?
 
J

JaneB

#4
Re: Does ISO 9001 Clause 7.3 Design and Development apply?

Do you believe that a company cannot undertake a design project on their own? That they can't design on speculation of a possible market?
:topic:
This seems to be a totally different question than the one of this thread.

Where is this coming from (ie, that Randy might hold such a misguided belief)? I'm quite sure he doesn't.

What's been said in this thread that might possibly lead you to such a conclusion? (I certainly missed it). :nope:
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#5
Re: Does ISO 9001 Clause 7.3 Design and Development apply?

:topic:
This seems to be a totally different question than the one of this thread.

Where is this coming from (ie, that Randy might hold such a misguided belief)? I'm quite sure he doesn't.

What's been said in this thread that might possibly lead you to such a conclusion? (I certainly missed it). :nope:
Off topic indeed. But I didn't start it off topic. Randy did.

I would think that Randy has the ability to defend himself.

It came from Randy's comment:

Also make sure that you have the 7.2.1 stuff down as well..especially 7.2.1b

You can't do 7.3 until you do 7.2.1

My point is that not all design activity needs to come from 7.2.1. Design can have its origins from internal activity without starting from 7.2 customer related activity.
 
#6
Re: Does ISO 9001 Clause 7.3 Design and Development apply?

Off topic indeed. But I didn't start it off topic. Randy did.

I would think that Randy has the ability to defend himself.

It came from Randy's comment:

Also make sure that you have the 7.2.1 stuff down as well..especially 7.2.1b

You can't do 7.3 until you do 7.2.1

My point is that not all design activity needs to come from 7.2.1. Design can have its origins from internal activity without starting from 7.2 customer related activity.
Are you suggesting that these requirements, 7.2 et al, only apply when there's a customer RFQ/PO, Jim?
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#7
Re: Does ISO 9001 Clause 7.3 Design and Development apply?

7.2.1b requirements not stated by the customer but necessary for specified or intended use, where known,

Maybe they actually want the concrete life preserver they want you to manufacture to float.

How about the customer not specifying that the product you make for them is done in compliance with the law?

How about the conditons under which your employees work be proper and lawful?

The customer may pay you to make a rubber ball but do they have to say that they want it to bounce as well or is that something that is automatically assumed?

When you order a meal in a restaurant do you specify that you want it to be ebible? Nope, the restaurant kinda figures that you want to eat it so they apply 7.2.1b

What is so hard to understand about this concept?
 
J

JaneB

#8
Re: Does ISO 9001 Clause 7.3 Design and Development apply?

7.2.1b requirements not stated by the customer but necessary for specified or intended use, where known
Precisely.

Of course one can create/design something in anticipation of a market - of course you don't have to have a customer beforehand. Any quality professional who held that view would be... well, polite words fail me ( rare I know).

But you have to pay attention to all the various relevant aspects of design, regardless.
 
J

JaneB

#9
Re: Does ISO 9001 Clause 7.3 Design and Development apply?

:topic:
I would think that Randy has the ability to defend himself.
Not in question. :tg: Very obvious to anyone who's spent more than, ooh shall we say a day? around the Cove. :lmao:
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#10
Re: Does ISO 9001 Clause 7.3 Design and Development apply?

Are you suggesting that these requirements, 7.2 et al, only apply when there's a customer RFQ/PO, Jim?
Given the title of 7.2, "Customer-related processes", can you come to another conclusion?

Also consider that 7.3.2, "Design and development inputs", covers gathering requirements for design and development.

Why would you also need to use 7.2.1 to gather requirements for design and development when there is no customer yet?
 
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