Can not do design without a Customer?

In terms of ISO 9001 7.2.1.

  • It can go either way

    Votes: 0 0.0%

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    11
  • Poll closed .

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#11
Re: Does ISO 9001 Clause 7.3 Design and Development apply?

7.2.1b requirements not stated by the customer but necessary for specified or intended use, where known,

Maybe they actually want the concrete life preserver they want you to manufacture to float.

How about the customer not specifying that the product you make for them is done in compliance with the law?

How about the conditons under which your employees work be proper and lawful?

The customer may pay you to make a rubber ball but do they have to say that they want it to bounce as well or is that something that is automatically assumed?

When you order a meal in a restaurant do you specify that you want it to be ebible? Nope, the restaurant kinda figures that you want to eat it so they apply 7.2.1b

What is so hard to understand about this concept?
I have no problem with any of that.

But do you mean that 7.2.1 applies when gathering requirements for design and development when there is no customer yet?
 
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J

JaneB

#12
Re: Does ISO 9001 Clause 7.3 Design and Development apply?

I have no problem with any of that.

But do you mean that 7.2.1 applies when gathering requirements for design and development when there is no customer yet?
Let me rephrase it: why would it not apply?

If one followed the logic of it not applying, no one could ever 'do design' to ISO 9001 requirements for any new product/services. Until after they sold the first one... which is when they have a customer... so would you now be expecting them to go back and retrofit the whole design thing to make sure they do meet its requirements?? :bonk:

This would defy common sense. The fact that one doesn't yet have a single customer doesn't (or shouldn't) obviate the need to consider the various elements of 7.2.1. It is just sheer good sense to do them, regardless of whether you have a real live customer or a real live RFP or whatever yet.

As for them being titled 'customer-related' in the Standard, sure they are. But I doubt that the responsible people believe you can't do it until you gotta real customer.
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#13
Re: Does ISO 9001 Clause 7.3 Design and Development apply?

Let me rephrase it: why would it not apply?

If one followed the logic of it not applying, no one could ever 'do design' to ISO 9001 requirements for any new product/services. Until after they sold the first one... which is when they have a customer... so would you now be expecting them to go back and retrofit the whole design thing to make sure they do meet its requirements?? :bonk:

This would defy common sense. The fact that one doesn't yet have a single customer doesn't (or shouldn't) obviate the need to consider the various elements of 7.2.1. It is just sheer good sense to do them, regardless of whether you have a real live customer or a real live RFP or whatever yet.

As for them being titled 'customer-related' in the Standard, sure they are. But I doubt that the responsible people believe you can't do it until you gotta real customer.
That makes no sense.

7.2 is "customer related processes". How can you gather customer requirements when there is no customer? You can't!

7.3.1 covers the same ground. That is where you belong when there is no customer.
 
#14
Re: Does ISO 9001 Clause 7.3 Design and Development apply?

Given the title of 7.2, "Customer-related processes", can you come to another conclusion?

Also consider that 7.3.2, "Design and development inputs", covers gathering requirements for design and development.

Why would you also need to use 7.2.1 to gather requirements for design and development when there is no customer yet?
Indeed I can - otherwise, why would a Marketing Department exist? I've worked for a number of companies who created innovative designs, but had no 'order' - they did, however, gather lots of 'customer requirements' before launching off into the design process!

You don't think that's applicable to 7.2? Why is 'customer' only one with an order? And, I'd suggest that anyone who undertakes product design without understanding customers isn't going to sell very much!
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#15
Re: Does ISO 9001 Clause 7.3 Design and Development apply?

Indeed I can - otherwise, why would a Marketing Department exist? I've worked for a number of companies who created innovative designs, but had no 'order' - they did, however, gather lots of 'customer requirements' before launching off into the design process!

You don't think that's applicable to 7.2? Why is 'customer' only one with an order? And, I'd suggest that anyone who undertakes product design without understanding customers isn't going to sell very much!
You have a good point to which I'm in agreement.

What I'm trying to get across is that if there is no customer involvement yet (and if it is wisdom for that to be the case is not the point) 7.2.1 does not apply.

In other words, 7.2.1 is not always a precursor to design. Trying to make it so goes beyond the scope of the standard.

Besides, as I said before, 7.3.2 covers the same ground. Actually it coves more, since it is not limited to customer input.

Marketing, by the way, was my undergrad emphasis in business school.
 
D

David Hartman

#16
Re: Does ISO 9001 Clause 7.3 Design and Development apply?

Marketing, by the way, was my undergrad emphasis in business school.
Then you are not unfamiliar with the terms "understanding your customers need", why else would you develop a product but to meet a potential customer's perceived needs. I believe that you have already gone through these steps (with the exclusion of 7.2.1a obviously), or your company would not have any initial design concept requirements on which to develop a design. If you have at some point discussed what the widget should do and what perceived customer needs that it will meet - you have met the requirements for 7.2.1b. If you then perform the research to determine if there are any statutory or regulatory requirements that may be applicable to your product - you have met 7.2.1c. And I am virtually positive that you have already looked at if there are internal company requirements (DFM as an example) that you would consider necessary - 7.2.1d. And on and on you go.

With an actual customer or not, if your designing a product to provide to potential customers - you have to be giving some consideration to what the customer's needs (requirements) are going to be. :2cents:
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#17
Re: Does ISO 9001 Clause 7.3 Design and Development apply?

You have a good point to which I'm in agreement.

What I'm trying to get across is that if there is no customer involvement yet (and if it is wisdom for that to be the case is not the point) 7.2.1 does not apply.

In other words, 7.2.1 is not always a precursor to design. Trying to make it so goes beyond the scope of the standard.

Besides, as I said before, 7.3.2 covers the same ground. Actually it coves more, since it is not limited to customer input.

Marketing, by the way, was my undergrad emphasis in business school.
Then you should understand creating a product in order to create a demand based upon future expectation. (Marketing was a pretty good part of my MBA as well)

Creating a product based upon expectation of its use. Do you honestly think that velcro was only created for NASA and the space industry?

"If you build it they will come" Remember that statement? "Field of Dreams"
 
J

JaneB

#18
Re: Does ISO 9001 Clause 7.3 Design and Development apply?

That makes no sense.

7.2 is "customer related processes". How can you gather customer requirements when there is no customer? You can't!
Fiddlesticks. This thinking is very concrete and limited.

Leaving aside who has studied marketing etc... (must we go down that road?) let's take a common sense approach.

You're going to have customers for your product/service sooner or later. Whether you have any right now is relatively immaterial. So you need the 7.2.1 stuff. It may not be possible to get all of it, but you'll need to do at least some of it. And probably some of 7.2.3 too - no point creating something that you won't be able to communicate to your customers about!

7.3.1 covers the same ground. That is where you belong when there is no customer.
Again, fiddlesticks.
By 'same ground' are you proposing that 7.3.2 = 7.2.1?? If so, I disagree.

As others have said, if you are "designing" something that you expect to provide and/or sell in future, then you must be considerng what the requirements are. 7.2.1
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#19
Re: Does ISO 9001 Clause 7.3 Design and Development apply?

David, Randy, and Jane,

I'll not take this further so if you are still in disagreement, take your best shots.

I believe you are going beyond the requirements of the standard when you try to apply 7.2.1 as a precursor to design when there is not yet any customer involvement.

Obviously you feel differently, but I fail to see the "shall" to hang that thinking on.

So maybe we need to agree to disagree, but lets get this thread back on topic.
 
#20
Re: Does ISO 9001 Clause 7.3 Design and Development apply?

I believe you are going beyond the requirements of the standard when you try to apply 7.2.1 as a precursor to design when there is not yet any customer involvement.
Jim, before you bow out, if I may: Many innovative products don't have 'customers involvement' per se. There's no order, no RFP, no idea on the customers behalf what is going to be specified as part of the product's performance, look etc. That was partly the problem with previous versions of ISO 9001/2 etc. with the fabled 'contract review' requirements. There wasn't a 'contact', because there wasn't a customer, yet!

I'm sure you must have worked in an organization where they design new products and they also have a marketing department - or technical 'sales' etc. They provide the 'requirements related to the customer' etc. etc. as 'design inputs'. It's probably just as well that they do, for you have also probably met Product Design Engineers who 'think' they know what a customer wants! I know I have! And the Marketing people had quite a different view of the product, than the way the Designers had specified it!

I'd suggest that, particularly in your role as an auditor, you might have to re-visit your thoughts on this...
 
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